1
00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:39,534
He never said a word.

2
00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:45,456
All kids have secrets. But this?

3
00:02:48,042 --> 00:02:49,627
He tried to tell us, Bill.

4
00:02:51,504 --> 00:02:53,798
He kept saying,
"I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mommy."

5
00:02:54,424 --> 00:02:56,584
- I don't remember that.
- When he wet the bed.

6
00:02:57,302 --> 00:02:58,970
He hasn't done that in years.

7
00:02:59,345 --> 00:03:02,098
Oh, God.
I... I thought he was ashamed, but...

8
00:03:04,350 --> 00:03:05,935
Was he trying to tell us, Bill?

9
00:03:06,269 --> 00:03:07,687
I don't know, Nance.

10
00:03:08,062 --> 00:03:10,023
What did he think happened
to that little boy?

11
00:03:10,607 --> 00:03:12,087
They had to know he wasn't breathing.

12
00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,944
He wasn't a part of any of... of that.
He...

13
00:03:17,697 --> 00:03:20,325
- He watched.
- He knew enough to put him on a cross.

14
00:03:22,827 --> 00:03:24,507
He thought it would bring him
back to life.

15
00:03:26,956 --> 00:03:28,708
I never liked that Martin boy.

16
00:03:29,667 --> 00:03:31,812
I told you, we should
never have let him play with him.

17
00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:32,836
He's too rough.

18
00:03:33,338 --> 00:03:34,938
What if he'd done that to Brian instead?

19
00:03:34,964 --> 00:03:38,384
We both thought it was good
seeing Bri finally have friends.

20
00:03:40,762 --> 00:03:42,388
Are they gonna take him from us?

21
00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:43,681
I won't let that happen.

22
00:03:44,724 --> 00:03:45,767
He has a good home.

23
00:03:58,446 --> 00:03:59,447
Hello?

24
00:04:02,408 --> 00:04:05,328
Uh, I'm dealing with a family matter.
Can you tell him...?

25
00:04:07,121 --> 00:04:09,123
Okay.

26
00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,085
Okay, I'll be right in.

27
00:04:15,255 --> 00:04:17,173
- Now?
- Gunn wants to see me.

28
00:04:17,715 --> 00:04:19,384
I'll tell him I'm taking the week off.

29
00:04:19,467 --> 00:04:20,969
- A week?
- Nance.

30
00:04:21,427 --> 00:04:23,846
I just meant
we need to get a handle on things.

31
00:04:24,722 --> 00:04:26,099
Find out what's next.

32
00:04:44,075 --> 00:04:45,075
What happened?

33
00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:52,417
I'm sorry, sir.

34
00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:54,002
I know I should be in Atlanta.

35
00:04:54,544 --> 00:04:56,671
- I got a phone call...
- Which is more than I got.

36
00:04:57,797 --> 00:04:58,798
Apologies.

37
00:04:59,215 --> 00:05:01,110
- I should have called.
- At the very least.

38
00:05:01,134 --> 00:05:03,195
The city has been begging
for federal help for weeks,

39
00:05:03,219 --> 00:05:04,939
and we are kicked out
in less than 24 hours.

40
00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:06,347
Yes, you should have called.

41
00:05:06,431 --> 00:05:09,142
I had to hear it
from the Atlanta office this morning.

42
00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:11,412
Apparently, Holden's introduction
wasn't well received

43
00:05:11,436 --> 00:05:12,854
by the safety commissioner?

44
00:05:12,937 --> 00:05:15,106
- Have you spoken with Holden?
- No.

45
00:05:15,189 --> 00:05:17,191
I'm asking you,
as the leader of your department,

46
00:05:17,275 --> 00:05:19,610
what did Holden say
that so offended the city?

47
00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:22,131
The commissioner's excuse
that this wasn't really a kidnapping

48
00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:23,865
was a convenient means to an end.

49
00:05:24,407 --> 00:05:27,285
- What did Holden say?
- Honestly, sir, nothing out of line.

50
00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:29,245
He gave the commissioner an overview:

51
00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:31,039
that we look for connections.

52
00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:34,167
He did explain he felt
there could be a single, black predator.

53
00:05:34,959 --> 00:05:36,639
It may have been more how he said it, sir,

54
00:05:36,711 --> 00:05:37,871
- than what he said.
- How so?

55
00:05:39,047 --> 00:05:42,383
He might have gone into more specifics
than we can support right now.

56
00:05:42,508 --> 00:05:44,594
The impression from the Atlanta SAC

57
00:05:44,677 --> 00:05:45,845
is that Holden was trying

58
00:05:45,928 --> 00:05:47,388
to steer the investigation

59
00:05:47,472 --> 00:05:49,974
into "avenues the city doesn't want
to explore right now,

60
00:05:50,058 --> 00:05:52,727
- at least not publicly."
- Sounds like politics, frankly.

61
00:05:52,810 --> 00:05:54,538
Name me a major city
where there are no politics.

62
00:05:54,562 --> 00:05:56,814
We have to be smarter than this.

63
00:05:56,898 --> 00:05:59,525
If you sense that Holden is wading
into political waters,

64
00:05:59,609 --> 00:06:00,860
it's your job to stop him...

65
00:06:01,652 --> 00:06:04,572
or at least give me the opportunity
to anticipate the fallout.

66
00:06:05,531 --> 00:06:07,367
Yes, sir. You're right.

67
00:06:08,201 --> 00:06:09,577
I should've read the room better.

68
00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:11,913
We want them to understand
why they need us,

69
00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:13,790
not why they should be wary of us.

70
00:06:13,873 --> 00:06:14,916
I understand, sir.

71
00:06:15,124 --> 00:06:17,085
This cannot happen again, Bill.

72
00:06:25,927 --> 00:06:28,888
- You couldn't have called me?
- Bill, it all happened so fast.

73
00:06:28,971 --> 00:06:30,723
Well, someone had enough time
to call Gunn.

74
00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:33,556
Barney told me
there was nothing we could have done.

75
00:06:33,601 --> 00:06:34,644
It's all politics.

76
00:06:34,727 --> 00:06:37,247
- I'm happy to talk to Ted.
- No. You're not talking to anyone.

77
00:06:37,271 --> 00:06:38,689
And it wasn't all politics, Holden,

78
00:06:38,773 --> 00:06:41,776
until you started selling
your unsupported conclusions.

79
00:06:41,859 --> 00:06:43,778
You agreed
the perpetrator is likely black.

80
00:06:44,362 --> 00:06:47,240
Can you see, just for a moment,
how it might be perceived

81
00:06:47,323 --> 00:06:50,284
when you present a profile
without ever having been to a crime scene?

82
00:06:50,868 --> 00:06:53,788
Next time, shut up
until we've done some groundwork!

83
00:07:19,021 --> 00:07:20,982
Sorry you had to hear that.

84
00:07:22,608 --> 00:07:23,651
You look terrible.

85
00:07:24,277 --> 00:07:25,277
Thanks.

86
00:07:26,362 --> 00:07:29,699
So, I take it
the Atlanta trip has been... curtailed?

87
00:07:31,868 --> 00:07:33,494
I can point the finger at Holden,

88
00:07:33,578 --> 00:07:36,622
but I'm supposed to be watching him.
Supposed to be his blinders.

89
00:07:37,081 --> 00:07:39,542
I let him get swept up in the moment,
impressing people,

90
00:07:39,625 --> 00:07:42,587
- then he must've stepped on a land mine.
- It's a full-time job.

91
00:07:43,921 --> 00:07:44,921
Yeah.

92
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,135
Look, I'll get better at it,
but I need to take a little time today.

93
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,512
- Family thing.
- Everything okay?

94
00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:54,849
Yeah. You know, just...
I'll be back in tomorrow.

95
00:07:54,932 --> 00:07:55,932
Okay.

96
00:07:59,979 --> 00:08:03,024
Um... Gregg and I did Henley.

97
00:08:03,608 --> 00:08:04,525
Gregg?

98
00:08:04,609 --> 00:08:06,211
Yeah. We thought you guys
would be gone for weeks,

99
00:08:06,235 --> 00:08:08,154
and we didn't want the interviews to lag.

100
00:08:08,237 --> 00:08:09,237
How'd he do?

101
00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:11,491
A little... hesitant.

102
00:08:12,408 --> 00:08:15,053
- He shit the rug, didn't he?
- It was a team effort.

103
00:08:15,077 --> 00:08:16,787
The transcripts should be done
by tomorrow.

104
00:08:16,871 --> 00:08:19,707
Look forward to it.

105
00:08:31,135 --> 00:08:32,303
We're gonna be late.

106
00:08:32,386 --> 00:08:33,387
We'll be fine.

107
00:08:33,471 --> 00:08:34,805
It starts in two minutes.

108
00:08:35,389 --> 00:08:36,974
So we'll miss the trailers.

109
00:08:37,892 --> 00:08:39,936
By the time we get our drinks
and our seats,

110
00:08:40,019 --> 00:08:41,687
we'll definitely miss something.

111
00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:43,898
This feels like a big deal.

112
00:08:43,981 --> 00:08:45,399
You're passing it.

113
00:08:46,067 --> 00:08:48,319
It's fine. I'm gonna get this spot.

114
00:08:49,529 --> 00:08:51,364
Look,
it's just that I'm one of those people

115
00:08:51,447 --> 00:08:52,782
who needs to see the whole thing.

116
00:08:52,865 --> 00:08:56,869
Like, I like to get my popcorn, my seat.
I like to watch the trailers.

117
00:08:58,037 --> 00:08:59,372
A lot of people feel this way.

118
00:08:59,455 --> 00:09:01,695
If you say so.

119
00:09:04,293 --> 00:09:08,589
But it's gonna take me at least
another minute to pull into this space.

120
00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:12,176
Because I am a really...

121
00:09:12,260 --> 00:09:14,720
slow... parker.

122
00:09:15,596 --> 00:09:17,723
We are definitely...

123
00:09:18,182 --> 00:09:21,060
going to miss... something.

124
00:09:27,441 --> 00:09:30,820
You know, I have an unopened,
very mediocre,

125
00:09:30,903 --> 00:09:33,614
probably spoiled, bottle of Chablis
at my apartment.

126
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:37,200
Really?

127
00:09:38,035 --> 00:09:39,203
It has a screw top.

128
00:09:41,372 --> 00:09:43,082
I mean, how can I say no to that?

129
00:10:01,434 --> 00:10:02,434
Ah.

130
00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:07,856
What?

131
00:10:08,482 --> 00:10:10,443
Nothing.

132
00:10:15,948 --> 00:10:16,948
Do you have that wine?

133
00:10:18,868 --> 00:10:22,246
I thought for sure I had unsold you
on that.

134
00:10:24,749 --> 00:10:25,875
Hmm.

135
00:10:55,237 --> 00:10:58,032
I didn't picture you living
in a place like this.

136
00:10:59,825 --> 00:11:00,825
Small?

137
00:11:01,494 --> 00:11:02,495
Sparse.

138
00:11:03,496 --> 00:11:05,122
Your life seems very abundant.

139
00:11:05,998 --> 00:11:08,125
Well, one's expansiveness of spirit

140
00:11:08,209 --> 00:11:11,003
needn't be reflected
by one's personal surroundings.

141
00:11:11,837 --> 00:11:12,837
Who said that?

142
00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:16,050
Me, just now.
Didn't you recognize my voice?

143
00:11:20,304 --> 00:11:21,389
He's adorable.

144
00:11:22,223 --> 00:11:25,017
Yeah. He's not bad.

145
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:27,687
How often do you see him?

146
00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:31,607
I'm seeing him this weekend.
Gonna take him to a Dukes game.

147
00:11:32,316 --> 00:11:33,150
Dukes?

148
00:11:33,234 --> 00:11:34,652
Uh, Double-A baseball.

149
00:11:36,737 --> 00:11:37,737
You miss him?

150
00:11:38,489 --> 00:11:39,489
Of course.

151
00:11:41,075 --> 00:11:44,161
It's just the idea of shaping another life
that terrifies me.

152
00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:45,830
I can barely manage my own.

153
00:11:47,498 --> 00:11:49,542
I still got milk crates for shelves.

154
00:11:49,625 --> 00:11:51,395
I've got real shelves,
and I don't think that shelves equate

155
00:11:51,419 --> 00:11:52,920
to any higher understanding.

156
00:11:54,755 --> 00:11:56,173
What you've done takes courage.

157
00:11:58,342 --> 00:12:00,761
I'm happy
that you're leading an authentic life.

158
00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:03,848
I'm happy to be here.

159
00:12:04,765 --> 00:12:05,808
With you.

160
00:12:13,566 --> 00:12:14,734
Me too.

161
00:12:28,789 --> 00:12:29,915
I like baseball.

162
00:12:30,541 --> 00:12:33,294
- <i>You </i>like baseball?
- Uh-huh.

163
00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,046
I mean, I'm sure I would
if I ever went to a game.

164
00:12:41,594 --> 00:12:44,722
Wendy, I don't introduce my son
to people I'm dating.

165
00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:48,851
Oh, no. Of course.

166
00:12:49,226 --> 00:12:50,352
It's not...

167
00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,146
No, it's... it's fine.

168
00:12:52,229 --> 00:12:54,440
I... I'm... I'm sorry. I shouldn't have.

169
00:12:54,523 --> 00:12:55,900
- This is not about you.
- No.

170
00:12:55,983 --> 00:12:57,252
Not specifically you. It's just...

171
00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,037
You... You shouldn't introduce your son
to people that you don't know.

172
00:13:00,446 --> 00:13:04,074
You know, I interview the by-products
of promiscuous mothers, and it's...

173
00:13:04,158 --> 00:13:05,618
I'm not saying that you're...

174
00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:15,419
Can we just go back
to just a few minutes ago,

175
00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:17,505
after I had the best sex of my life,

176
00:13:17,588 --> 00:13:20,007
and before I invited myself
to Little League?

177
00:13:22,259 --> 00:13:23,427
It's "minor league."

178
00:13:24,678 --> 00:13:27,014
And... he would really like you.

179
00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:31,268
He's just... He's been through a lot,
and I don't...

180
00:13:31,352 --> 00:13:35,022
I don't want to freak him out.
You know, not until it's... something.

181
00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,904
Uh,
was that really the best sex of your life?

182
00:13:47,701 --> 00:13:49,829
Nice save, the dyke mentor story.

183
00:13:51,038 --> 00:13:52,164
And just in time.

184
00:13:52,623 --> 00:13:55,435
I had to come up with something
that would make him feel accepted.

185
00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:56,293
Well, it worked.

186
00:13:56,377 --> 00:13:58,462
But then he adamantly denied
being homosexual.

187
00:13:58,546 --> 00:14:02,049
He was actually more defensive about that
than he was about being called a sadist.

188
00:14:02,132 --> 00:14:04,301
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

189
00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:06,929
He protests a lot of things.
Rape, torture, murder.

190
00:14:07,012 --> 00:14:10,140
By saying that he didn't engage
in those aspects of the crimes,

191
00:14:10,224 --> 00:14:12,393
he characterizes himself
as a nonparticipant.

192
00:14:13,435 --> 00:14:16,146
It's amazing how he's able
to compartmentalize.

193
00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:19,650
We have to consider, Henley was a kid.

194
00:14:20,109 --> 00:14:23,404
He might view his participation
as having been beyond his control.

195
00:14:23,779 --> 00:14:26,407
He knew exactly what was gonna happen
to the victims he procured.

196
00:14:26,490 --> 00:14:28,784
And he made a conscious decision
not to intervene.

197
00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:31,370
So whether he participated or not,
he's culpable.

198
00:14:31,453 --> 00:14:33,914
I think there's a distinction
between procurement,

199
00:14:33,998 --> 00:14:36,041
as fucked up as it is, and murder.

200
00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:37,918
Distinction, yes,
but not absolution.

201
00:14:38,002 --> 00:14:41,088
I'm not excusing him.
I'm just asking,

202
00:14:41,171 --> 00:14:44,091
can a teenager be held responsible
for the actions of an adult?

203
00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:46,010
He was trying to please Corll.

204
00:14:46,093 --> 00:14:47,293
He was probably afraid of him.

205
00:14:47,344 --> 00:14:49,805
Actually, he seemed to be more
in thrall of Corll

206
00:14:49,889 --> 00:14:52,200
- than he was afraid of him.
- So is that why he stuck around?

207
00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:53,642
He got off on watching Corll kill?

208
00:14:53,726 --> 00:14:55,311
How do we know Henley got off on it?

209
00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,314
"When I did something,
whatever it was, I enjoyed it."

210
00:14:58,981 --> 00:15:01,525
Bill, he assisted in killing 20 boys.

211
00:15:01,609 --> 00:15:03,444
What could possibly be defensible in that?

212
00:15:03,527 --> 00:15:05,529
All I'm saying is, he was 14.

213
00:15:05,988 --> 00:15:08,407
Can we really lump him in
with Kemper and Brudos?

214
00:15:09,241 --> 00:15:12,536
Without Corll's influence,
would he have ever progressed to murder?

215
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,680
There's no way to know.

216
00:15:13,704 --> 00:15:16,123
But incredibly,
he acknowledges a deep connection

217
00:15:16,206 --> 00:15:18,709
with a man that he saw do horrific things.

218
00:15:18,959 --> 00:15:20,239
Who even threatened to kill him.

219
00:15:20,294 --> 00:15:23,631
Maybe his need for acceptance
was more powerful than any moral boundary.

220
00:15:23,714 --> 00:15:25,341
And Corll exploited that.

221
00:15:28,135 --> 00:15:31,180
I've been thinking
that we should talk about our tactics.

222
00:15:33,474 --> 00:15:35,827
You know, we wouldn't have gotten any
of this if I hadn't...

223
00:15:35,851 --> 00:15:38,312
- Improvised?
- Maybe made some shit up?

224
00:15:38,812 --> 00:15:39,812
Touché.

225
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:42,042
If we're going to teach
an interview technique,

226
00:15:42,066 --> 00:15:43,943
it can't be
strictly following the instrument.

227
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,154
So far, the only thing
that's worked is to talk about them.

228
00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:52,784
Sir.

229
00:15:56,705 --> 00:15:57,705
Henley?

230
00:15:59,083 --> 00:16:01,794
Quite a maneuver, Dr. Carr.
I thought I was reading Holden.

231
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,964
Gregg, would you give us a minute, please?

232
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,434
Assistant Director Wyman is coming down
in a few weeks.

233
00:16:17,935 --> 00:16:21,355
I'm having a small gathering at my home,
and I'd like you all to come.

234
00:16:21,438 --> 00:16:23,565
Of course. Be happy to, Ted.

235
00:16:23,649 --> 00:16:26,151
Wyman could be a powerful advocate in DC.

236
00:16:26,235 --> 00:16:28,296
I'd like him to hear our narrative
directly from you,

237
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,488
the people who created this.

238
00:16:29,571 --> 00:16:30,571
Yes, sir.

239
00:16:30,739 --> 00:16:32,366
So, it's a working party.

240
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,327
Yes, but I want you
to have a good time, Bill. Bring Nancy.

241
00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,956
Holden, Dr. Carr,
please feel free to bring a guest.

242
00:16:40,874 --> 00:16:42,668
Thank you, sir. We'll plan on it.

243
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,254
Oh, uh, one more thing.

244
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:48,131
I got you Manson.

245
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,510
- When?
- Three weeks.

246
00:16:57,850 --> 00:16:58,684
Holy shit.

247
00:16:58,767 --> 00:17:00,936
We have to think carefully
about how we approach this.

248
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:02,146
Did he say Manson?

249
00:17:02,229 --> 00:17:03,540
We approach it like we do every interview.

250
00:17:03,564 --> 00:17:05,375
No. This is the first time
that we'll sit down

251
00:17:05,399 --> 00:17:07,860
with a subject
who hasn't actually taken a life.

252
00:17:07,943 --> 00:17:09,111
Now what would be valuable

253
00:17:09,194 --> 00:17:11,655
would be to look at him
from the team perspective.

254
00:17:12,197 --> 00:17:14,283
Manson was the undisputed leader
of his Family.

255
00:17:14,366 --> 00:17:15,743
Then that's our approach.

256
00:17:17,494 --> 00:17:20,622
<i>The ME's report corroborates
the testimony of the other children:</i>

257
00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:24,001
that Brian did not directly engage
in the activities

258
00:17:24,084 --> 00:17:26,670
that led to the death of the victim.

259
00:17:27,046 --> 00:17:30,174
However, he was present
and, as he has admitted,

260
00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:32,760
he was the one who suggested
placing the victim on the cross.

261
00:17:32,843 --> 00:17:35,596
He thought it would bring Daniel
back to life...

262
00:17:35,679 --> 00:17:38,682
Mrs. Tench, a child has been forever lost
to his family.

263
00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:42,227
Brian seemingly acted without malice,
and because of his age,

264
00:17:42,311 --> 00:17:45,105
I'm choosing not to pursue legal action
against him.

265
00:17:45,481 --> 00:17:47,441
But the State cannot ignore

266
00:17:47,524 --> 00:17:49,985
that he had ample opportunity
to go for help

267
00:17:50,069 --> 00:17:52,905
or to speak with you, his parents,
after the fact.

268
00:17:53,238 --> 00:17:54,364
He chose not to.

269
00:17:54,448 --> 00:17:56,825
Either he was evading detection,

270
00:17:56,909 --> 00:17:58,869
or he has no concept of right and wrong.

271
00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:02,831
The State is obligated
to try to understand his motives

272
00:18:02,915 --> 00:18:05,876
to ensure he is not a danger to himself
or the community.

273
00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:08,045
- A danger?
- I am transferring him

274
00:18:08,128 --> 00:18:10,714
to the Department of Health
and Human Services for evaluation.

275
00:18:10,798 --> 00:18:12,633
Will we be able to keep him at home?

276
00:18:12,883 --> 00:18:13,717
Yes.

277
00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,304
You have been assigned a caseworker
and a mental health professional.

278
00:18:17,679 --> 00:18:21,892
The court will render decisions
based solely on their evaluations.

279
00:18:22,309 --> 00:18:25,187
Your compliance
in this process is mandatory

280
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:28,357
and will be critical
in determining Brian's future.

281
00:18:29,858 --> 00:18:32,361
Social workers are underpaid
and overeducated.

282
00:18:32,444 --> 00:18:35,739
Don't try and sit this person down
and explain your way out of this.

283
00:18:35,948 --> 00:18:37,783
It won't go over well with them.

284
00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,869
No matter what hoops they present,
it's best to jump through.

285
00:18:40,953 --> 00:18:44,039
I thought once they found out Brian
was telling the truth, this would be over.

286
00:18:44,581 --> 00:18:46,291
We get to keep him at home, Nance.

287
00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,169
To be poked and prodded by strangers.

288
00:18:49,253 --> 00:18:51,797
- A social worker?
- We don't have a choice.

289
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,507
He didn't do anything.

290
00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:58,571
- Thanks, Art. I appreciate everything...
- It's all right, Bill.

291
00:18:58,595 --> 00:18:59,972
I've got kids myself.

292
00:19:00,889 --> 00:19:01,889
Take care.

293
00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:10,190
Why didn't you say something in there?

294
00:19:11,233 --> 00:19:14,027
- You won't defend your own child?
- It's not a courtroom, honey.

295
00:19:14,111 --> 00:19:17,030
Art's right,
we have to go through the process.

296
00:19:19,032 --> 00:19:21,994
And maybe it's not a bad idea
for Brian to talk to someone.

297
00:19:22,578 --> 00:19:23,620
He's not defective.

298
00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:25,706
He's not a criminal.

299
00:19:26,957 --> 00:19:28,167
I know that, Nance.

300
00:19:29,168 --> 00:19:30,919
He's coming home with us.

301
00:19:31,837 --> 00:19:33,338
Today was a good day.

302
00:19:37,467 --> 00:19:39,887
<i>♪ Cease to exist ♪</i>

303
00:19:41,388 --> 00:19:45,350
<i>♪ Just come and say you love me ♪</i>

304
00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:52,316
<i>♪ Give up your world ♪</i>

305
00:19:53,859 --> 00:20:00,073
<i>♪ Come on, you can be ♪</i>

306
00:20:00,157 --> 00:20:02,242
<i>♪ I'm your kind ♪</i>

307
00:20:02,451 --> 00:20:04,745
<i>♪ Oh, your kind, and I can... ♪</i>

308
00:20:05,829 --> 00:20:06,830
Seriously?

309
00:20:06,914 --> 00:20:07,914
He's not bad.

310
00:20:08,081 --> 00:20:09,208
Just tough to promote?

311
00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:11,835
You're down the rabbit hole.

312
00:20:13,587 --> 00:20:15,422
Did I miss anything that matters?

313
00:20:15,505 --> 00:20:17,966
No. We were just about
to start talking objectives.

314
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:19,718
Wendy is absolutely right.

315
00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:21,803
- Uh-huh.
- We're not asking Manson about killing.

316
00:20:21,887 --> 00:20:23,764
What we need to find out
is how a diminutive,

317
00:20:23,847 --> 00:20:25,766
uneducated ex-con

318
00:20:25,849 --> 00:20:27,601
convinced a group
of middle-class teenagers

319
00:20:27,684 --> 00:20:29,895
to brutally murder seven strangers.

320
00:20:31,563 --> 00:20:32,564
The killers:

321
00:20:33,357 --> 00:20:35,025
Susan Atkins, 19.

322
00:20:35,108 --> 00:20:36,443
Manson called her "Sadie."

323
00:20:37,152 --> 00:20:38,528
Church choir member.

324
00:20:38,612 --> 00:20:40,489
Linda Kasabian, 20.

325
00:20:40,572 --> 00:20:41,448
Good student.

326
00:20:41,531 --> 00:20:44,493
Described as a "starry-eyed romantic"
by her friends.

327
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,995
Patricia Krenwinkel, 22.

328
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,498
Studied catechism.
Considered becoming a nun.

329
00:20:50,165 --> 00:20:52,459
Mary Brunner, 26.

330
00:20:53,335 --> 00:20:54,335
Librarian.

331
00:20:55,045 --> 00:20:57,506
And Tex Watson, 24.

332
00:20:58,423 --> 00:21:01,426
Honors student,
school paper editor, lettered athlete.

333
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:03,011
Looks like a high school yearbook.

334
00:21:03,095 --> 00:21:05,514
All grew up in average homes,
had high school educations,

335
00:21:05,597 --> 00:21:06,597
some had college.

336
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:10,352
Then all became runaways
and somehow washed up in Manson's Family.

337
00:21:10,852 --> 00:21:13,522
With the exception of Brunner,
the very first Family member,

338
00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:16,775
their transformation to murderers
took less than two years.

339
00:21:16,858 --> 00:21:19,418
Mary Brunner wasn't involved
in the Tate/LaBianca murders.

340
00:21:19,695 --> 00:21:23,448
That's correct.
She was arrested with Bobby Beausoleil

341
00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:26,201
just two days before Tate/LaBianca.

342
00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:29,413
The pair killed a music producer
over a bad drug deal,

343
00:21:29,496 --> 00:21:31,456
but what's really of interest
is the scene.

344
00:21:32,499 --> 00:21:35,544
Brunner and Beausoleil tried to pin
their murder on the Black Panthers

345
00:21:35,627 --> 00:21:39,965
by writing "political piggy"
on the wall in the victim's blood.

346
00:21:42,926 --> 00:21:44,344
Now here's the LaBianca scene.

347
00:21:45,262 --> 00:21:46,263
"Death to pigs."

348
00:21:47,806 --> 00:21:49,891
And the scene at Cielo Drive...

349
00:21:50,517 --> 00:21:52,894
"Pig" in Sharon Tate's blood.

350
00:21:53,729 --> 00:21:54,938
Helter Skelter.

351
00:21:55,022 --> 00:21:56,565
It was Manson's theme.

352
00:21:57,107 --> 00:21:58,317
The prosecution's case

353
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,445
rested on his desire
to incite a race war as motive

354
00:22:01,528 --> 00:22:03,238
and his control over the Family as means.

355
00:22:03,322 --> 00:22:04,698
Ever heard of Krishna Venta?

356
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,743
- No.
- Ex-con who declared himself a messiah.

357
00:22:08,201 --> 00:22:09,619
He founded his own church,

358
00:22:09,703 --> 00:22:11,872
preaching society was corrupt and doomed.

359
00:22:13,290 --> 00:22:14,730
He said there was a race war coming.

360
00:22:15,751 --> 00:22:17,753
Krishna said he knew a secret place
in the desert

361
00:22:17,836 --> 00:22:19,838
where he
and his flock could wait it all out.

362
00:22:19,921 --> 00:22:21,673
Then, when the war was over,

363
00:22:22,507 --> 00:22:24,843
they'd emerge
and create a new civilization.

364
00:22:24,926 --> 00:22:27,726
- That's right out of Manson's playbook.
- Krishna's playbook.

365
00:22:28,972 --> 00:22:30,974
Manson stayed at his church in '68.

366
00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:34,247
He said, "It's like the spirit
of everything brought me there."

367
00:22:34,853 --> 00:22:37,189
Later,
he espoused exactly the same doctrine,

368
00:22:37,272 --> 00:22:38,648
calling it "Helter Skelter."

369
00:22:38,732 --> 00:22:40,984
Helter Skelter wasn't even Manson's idea?

370
00:22:41,068 --> 00:22:42,277
As borrowed as the name.

371
00:22:42,361 --> 00:22:43,612
He's a fraud.

372
00:22:43,695 --> 00:22:45,447
Still, the question remains,

373
00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:47,074
how does a guy like that...

374
00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:49,451
get kids like that...

375
00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:52,620
to do that?

376
00:23:04,257 --> 00:23:07,761
Have you noticed any changes
in his behavior, self-soothing?

377
00:23:08,261 --> 00:23:09,261
Not at all.

378
00:23:27,030 --> 00:23:29,199
- Do you read to him, Mrs. Tench?
- Mm-hmm.

379
00:23:30,075 --> 00:23:31,868
He likes<i> Clifford the Big Red Dog.</i>

380
00:23:35,622 --> 00:23:36,998
Sports, Mr. Tench?

381
00:23:37,624 --> 00:23:38,708
He rides his bike.

382
00:23:39,209 --> 00:23:42,129
- Almost off training wheels.
- But no team sports.

383
00:23:42,587 --> 00:23:43,587
No.

384
00:23:57,644 --> 00:23:59,396
What does he do when he's upset?

385
00:23:59,938 --> 00:24:01,481
He's not a big talker, but...

386
00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:04,151
he always comes to us
if he needs anything.

387
00:24:12,701 --> 00:24:14,369
And he attends the public school?

388
00:24:14,453 --> 00:24:15,453
Yes.

389
00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:18,999
Which has no special education department?

390
00:24:19,082 --> 00:24:20,500
- No.
- No, we've never felt

391
00:24:20,584 --> 00:24:22,085
he needed that kind of...

392
00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:23,420
Brian's just shy.

393
00:24:25,005 --> 00:24:26,005
I see.

394
00:24:29,634 --> 00:24:30,969
How do you handle bad behavior?

395
00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:33,013
Nothing extraordinary.

396
00:24:33,096 --> 00:24:34,973
Sent to his room, the usual thing.

397
00:24:40,145 --> 00:24:41,146
Corporal punishment?

398
00:24:41,521 --> 00:24:42,564
- Never.
- No.

399
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,832
- Do you have a weapon in the house?
- I keep my gun in my office.

400
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:01,917
And you keep it locked?

401
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,001
At all times.

402
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:07,630
Brian!

403
00:25:11,259 --> 00:25:13,929
Brian, come here.

404
00:25:16,223 --> 00:25:17,223
Hm.

405
00:25:18,934 --> 00:25:20,852
This is Miss Leland.

406
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:22,521
Ms. Leland.

407
00:25:24,523 --> 00:25:25,524
Hi, Brian.

408
00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,572
Bri, why don't you go inside
and read some<i> Clifford?</i>

409
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,241
I'll be right in.

410
00:25:35,909 --> 00:25:36,909
Go on.

411
00:25:46,545 --> 00:25:47,545
Does he avoid you?

412
00:25:48,463 --> 00:25:49,881
He's had a tough few weeks.

413
00:25:49,965 --> 00:25:52,217
Ms. Leland, we love Brian.

414
00:25:53,009 --> 00:25:55,470
He may be adopted, but he's our baby.

415
00:25:55,554 --> 00:25:57,305
Of course he is, Mrs. Tench.

416
00:25:59,891 --> 00:26:02,477
At our next appointment,
I'll need the birth certificate,

417
00:26:02,561 --> 00:26:05,897
his medical records,
and all school reports.

418
00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:09,859
These explain the process.

419
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:13,822
Basic child safety guidelines.

420
00:26:14,322 --> 00:26:16,908
I'll be stopping by periodically,
unannounced, to observe.

421
00:26:16,992 --> 00:26:20,787
We need to establish a baseline
for how he behaves in this environment

422
00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:22,289
to evaluate his progress.

423
00:26:22,372 --> 00:26:24,833
Then we can determine
whether adjustments need to be made.

424
00:26:24,916 --> 00:26:26,626
What kind of adjustments?

425
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:28,390
We won't know until we've spent some time.

426
00:26:28,628 --> 00:26:31,047
Your appointments with Dr. Moritz
will be every Friday.

427
00:26:31,131 --> 00:26:32,674
You'll both need to attend.

428
00:26:34,509 --> 00:26:35,343
Of course.

429
00:26:35,427 --> 00:26:37,929
We'll submit regular reports
to the commonwealth attorney

430
00:26:38,013 --> 00:26:39,514
with our recommendations.

431
00:26:39,598 --> 00:26:42,934
Ultimately,
he'll make all decisions moving forward.

432
00:26:50,692 --> 00:26:51,692
We'll see you.

433
00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:53,445
Yes, you will.

434
00:26:57,699 --> 00:26:58,783
We do the exact same thing.

435
00:27:00,243 --> 00:27:01,411
What's that?

436
00:27:02,787 --> 00:27:03,997
Walk the crime scene.

437
00:27:08,126 --> 00:27:09,886
Don't get too comfortable
around her.

438
00:27:10,962 --> 00:27:12,130
She's not our friend.

439
00:27:34,611 --> 00:27:35,654
Hold it!

440
00:27:36,696 --> 00:27:37,739
- FBI.
- Thank you.

441
00:27:45,163 --> 00:27:46,748
You hoping for an autograph?

442
00:27:46,831 --> 00:27:47,874
It's research.

443
00:27:48,541 --> 00:27:51,002
Try not to moisten yourself
before you get inside.

444
00:28:10,438 --> 00:28:13,441
It's gonna be a bit of a wait.
He's refusing to come out of his cell.

445
00:28:14,317 --> 00:28:15,443
I'm stunned.

446
00:28:16,528 --> 00:28:18,688
- Any chance Kemper's available?
- I can check.

447
00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:20,365
No! Not Kemper.

448
00:28:20,448 --> 00:28:21,908
We came to see Manson.

449
00:28:21,991 --> 00:28:23,910
- We'll wait him out.
- Bill, I'll be fine.

450
00:28:25,829 --> 00:28:28,998
You need to ask Kemper about returning
to the scene of the crime, for BTK.

451
00:28:29,082 --> 00:28:30,542
We know he did that. He told us.

452
00:28:30,625 --> 00:28:31,876
But we need to know why.

453
00:28:33,044 --> 00:28:34,963
I will be fine.

454
00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:44,472
Besides, how's Manson gonna feel
when he finds out we're talking to Kemper?

455
00:28:45,473 --> 00:28:47,434
These guys are all jealous of each other.

456
00:28:47,517 --> 00:28:49,620
For the use of reason

457
00:28:49,644 --> 00:28:55,150
is to justify the obscure desires
that move our conduct,

458
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:58,403
impulses, passions,

459
00:28:58,486 --> 00:29:00,947
prejudice, and follies.

460
00:29:05,535 --> 00:29:06,703
Gentlemen.

461
00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:08,663
What a surprise.

462
00:29:12,083 --> 00:29:13,835
- Bill.
- Ed.

463
00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:15,962
Holden.

464
00:29:17,547 --> 00:29:18,631
Good to see you, Ed.

465
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:20,467
Have a seat.

466
00:29:24,262 --> 00:29:26,639
Do you know that Holden came to see me

467
00:29:27,807 --> 00:29:29,267
when I was in the hospital?

468
00:29:29,684 --> 00:29:30,769
I'm aware.

469
00:29:30,852 --> 00:29:32,562
It really meant a lot to me.

470
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,899
That's what friends are for, right?

471
00:29:39,736 --> 00:29:41,738
So, Manson, huh?

472
00:29:41,946 --> 00:29:43,198
Word travels fast.

473
00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:45,950
Oh, it's hard to keep
something like that quiet.

474
00:29:46,034 --> 00:29:48,495
Everybody knows when Charlie takes a shit.

475
00:29:48,578 --> 00:29:51,289
And if you haven't heard,
he'll tell you all about it.

476
00:29:51,831 --> 00:29:53,875
Even if somebody else took the shit
for him.

477
00:29:53,958 --> 00:29:56,836
- Right.
- He's never done that.

478
00:29:57,587 --> 00:29:59,005
Doesn't know what it's like.

479
00:29:59,297 --> 00:30:01,174
You're saying
he's not worth our attention?

480
00:30:01,257 --> 00:30:04,260
The "mayhem" has been
copiously mythologized.

481
00:30:04,677 --> 00:30:07,347
If you really want to understand
how that all went down,

482
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:08,640
you should talk to Tex.

483
00:30:09,057 --> 00:30:10,977
- The all-American pawn?
- Yeah.

484
00:30:11,643 --> 00:30:13,788
- I'm sure you're right, Bill.
- We'll keep that in mind.

485
00:30:13,812 --> 00:30:15,772
But we didn't come here
to talk about Manson.

486
00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:18,066
Oh.

487
00:30:19,901 --> 00:30:22,487
What did you want to talk about?

488
00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:25,323
You, Ed.

489
00:30:26,533 --> 00:30:29,160
I wanted to ask you
about something you said a while back.

490
00:30:29,244 --> 00:30:31,663
About revisiting
the sites of your victims.

491
00:30:32,163 --> 00:30:33,163
Mm-hmm?

492
00:30:33,748 --> 00:30:34,833
Why did you do that?

493
00:30:36,084 --> 00:30:39,045
Well, at the murder site,
I could relive the experience.

494
00:30:39,128 --> 00:30:40,630
Feel the same elation,

495
00:30:41,089 --> 00:30:42,715
the incredible release.

496
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:43,842
It excited you.

497
00:30:44,676 --> 00:30:45,676
Yes.

498
00:30:46,761 --> 00:30:49,472
I would also relive
the sexual gratification.

499
00:30:50,139 --> 00:30:52,100
What would make you decide to visit?

500
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:56,396
The feeling of complete dominance,
total possession you get from a kill,

501
00:30:57,188 --> 00:30:58,439
becomes a need.

502
00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:01,568
That need builds
until it becomes a compulsion

503
00:31:01,651 --> 00:31:03,903
to a point that you have to hunt again.

504
00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:06,990
Sometimes, I could stave off that need

505
00:31:07,365 --> 00:31:09,325
by remembering the moment of the kill.

506
00:31:10,493 --> 00:31:13,413
You can really savor that
when you're in the exact spot.

507
00:31:13,496 --> 00:31:15,123
What if you can't make it to a site?

508
00:31:15,206 --> 00:31:16,499
Too many people around.

509
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:21,004
I kept things. Little trinkets.
Reminders of my experience.

510
00:31:21,087 --> 00:31:21,963
The Polaroids.

511
00:31:22,046 --> 00:31:24,048
I could hold them. Possess them.

512
00:31:24,591 --> 00:31:25,675
They were souvenirs.

513
00:31:25,967 --> 00:31:27,653
Was there a specific amount of time,

514
00:31:27,677 --> 00:31:31,306
something you could measure,
when the "souvenirs" weren't enough?

515
00:31:34,642 --> 00:31:36,519
Have you got somebody, Holden?

516
00:31:38,855 --> 00:31:40,064
Someone you can't catch?

517
00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:44,319
Is that right, Bill?

518
00:31:44,819 --> 00:31:47,614
Who is it? The East Area Rapist?
The San Mateo Slasher?

519
00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:50,074
I-45 Killer down in Texas?

520
00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,955
You've found somebody
who hasn't made the news yet.

521
00:31:57,415 --> 00:31:58,625
Just startin' out.

522
00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:00,793
Would you have any thoughts
on someone like that?

523
00:32:01,461 --> 00:32:02,503
Of course.

524
00:32:03,963 --> 00:32:06,716
But I'd have to be acquainted
with the pertinent facts.

525
00:32:07,634 --> 00:32:10,553
We can't discuss ongoing investigations,
Ed.

526
00:32:11,137 --> 00:32:12,137
With anyone.

527
00:32:12,555 --> 00:32:13,806
I'm sure you understand.

528
00:32:14,223 --> 00:32:15,223
Of course, Bill.

529
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:23,149
It's a taxing lifestyle.

530
00:32:23,816 --> 00:32:26,611
A lot of factors that go into success.

531
00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:28,613
As I got better,

532
00:32:29,322 --> 00:32:32,951
I was very careful
that all conditions were exactly right.

533
00:32:36,788 --> 00:32:41,084
This person you're after,
he has an overwhelming fantasy life.

534
00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:45,755
Fantasies of what he's done,
what he wants to do,

535
00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:48,424
how he's going to improve.

536
00:32:50,551 --> 00:32:52,387
These dreams will consume him.

537
00:32:52,887 --> 00:32:55,139
Soon, the real world won't even compare.

538
00:32:57,141 --> 00:32:58,559
How do we catch a fantasy, Ed?

539
00:32:59,769 --> 00:33:01,479
You can't. If he's any good,

540
00:33:02,438 --> 00:33:03,439
you'll never see it.

541
00:33:03,523 --> 00:33:06,859
He'll live like any other person,
have relationships, hold down a job.

542
00:33:06,943 --> 00:33:09,487
We know killers don't have the tools
to manage real life.

543
00:33:09,862 --> 00:33:11,572
They come from marginalized backgrounds,

544
00:33:11,656 --> 00:33:14,456
they break under the pressure
of what they've done. They make mistakes.

545
00:33:16,411 --> 00:33:18,955
It seems to me
everything you know about serial killers

546
00:33:19,038 --> 00:33:21,416
has been gleaned
from the ones who've been caught.

547
00:33:26,504 --> 00:33:27,504
He's ready.

548
00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:30,758
Sorry, Ed.

549
00:33:31,217 --> 00:33:33,928
That's all right, Bill.

550
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,682
Did you save enough tape
for the charlatan?

551
00:33:37,765 --> 00:33:38,933
I brought extra.

552
00:33:39,017 --> 00:33:40,435
You'll need it. He's a talker.

553
00:33:42,145 --> 00:33:43,563
I'm still trying to write my book.

554
00:33:43,646 --> 00:33:45,857
I just need access to a typewriter.

555
00:33:46,024 --> 00:33:48,585
- Yeah, we'll see what we can do.
- Thank you, Bill.

556
00:33:48,609 --> 00:33:49,694
See you around.

557
00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:52,405
One more thing.

558
00:33:53,614 --> 00:33:55,408
Manson is really small.

559
00:33:56,325 --> 00:33:57,744
Like, really small.

560
00:33:58,578 --> 00:33:59,662
Try not to stare.

561
00:34:07,128 --> 00:34:08,421
Suck my dick!

562
00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:13,426
That's my bitch!

563
00:34:16,929 --> 00:34:18,097
Fuck you, man!

564
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:20,683
Fuck you!

565
00:34:24,395 --> 00:34:26,481
Fuck you! Fuck you!

566
00:34:45,041 --> 00:34:46,793
Do you think we should talk to Tex?

567
00:34:47,293 --> 00:34:49,462
You realize Kemper keeps reeling you in?

568
00:34:49,545 --> 00:34:52,090
He's the most cogent,
credible subject we've ever interviewed.

569
00:34:52,173 --> 00:34:53,007
The bar is low.

570
00:34:53,091 --> 00:34:54,359
If Kemper hadn't turned himself in,

571
00:34:54,383 --> 00:34:56,195
he could've avoided capture
for as long as he wanted.

572
00:34:56,219 --> 00:34:57,553
He's an incredible resource.

573
00:34:58,179 --> 00:34:59,430
You bought a new microphone.

574
00:35:01,557 --> 00:35:02,558
For posterity.

575
00:35:13,111 --> 00:35:15,321
Like a fucking king.

576
00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:22,745
Uncuff him, please.

577
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:34,589
All of them.

578
00:35:36,175 --> 00:35:37,593
I'm Special Agent Tench.

579
00:35:38,010 --> 00:35:39,428
This is Special Agent Ford.

580
00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:42,431
This isn't an interrogation, Mr. Manson.

581
00:35:42,515 --> 00:35:45,351
We know that you didn't commit the Tate
or LaBianca murders.

582
00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:48,604
What we're interested in
is your relationship with your Family.

583
00:35:48,688 --> 00:35:51,107
And what bearing that relationship had
on the crimes.

584
00:35:51,732 --> 00:35:52,732
Please.

585
00:35:59,323 --> 00:36:01,033
We'd like to hear from you,

586
00:36:01,117 --> 00:36:03,317
in your own words, about what happened.

587
00:36:20,344 --> 00:36:21,888
Do you mind if we record this?

588
00:36:28,102 --> 00:36:30,313
Over the years,
some members have blamed you

589
00:36:30,396 --> 00:36:31,396
for the murders,

590
00:36:31,731 --> 00:36:33,107
then changed their story.

591
00:36:33,649 --> 00:36:36,360
Others, quite famously,
have protected you.

592
00:36:36,777 --> 00:36:39,197
You seem to have a hold on them
even from prison.

593
00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,490
But no matter what they say,

594
00:36:41,824 --> 00:36:43,367
you maintain the same story.

595
00:36:43,868 --> 00:36:45,703
Because my truth is simple.

596
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,040
- And your truth's complicated.
- Complicated how?

597
00:36:49,248 --> 00:36:51,959
Well, you don't see it,
but the only truth is now.

598
00:36:52,293 --> 00:36:54,545
Now is the only thing that's real.

599
00:36:54,629 --> 00:36:57,089
Well, we're mainly interested in then.

600
00:36:57,173 --> 00:36:58,883
How you met, influenced,

601
00:36:58,966 --> 00:37:00,801
and indoctrinated the people
who followed you.

602
00:37:00,885 --> 00:37:02,470
Indoctrinated? Come on, man.

603
00:37:03,554 --> 00:37:04,847
How did the Family begin?

604
00:37:05,139 --> 00:37:06,299
Did you start with the girls?

605
00:37:06,349 --> 00:37:07,850
These people you call the "Family,"

606
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:09,810
they're just children
that you didn't want.

607
00:37:09,894 --> 00:37:11,562
You threw 'em out like trash.

608
00:37:11,646 --> 00:37:14,273
So I picked them up
off the side of the road, and I said this:

609
00:37:14,774 --> 00:37:16,734
in love, there is no wrong.

610
00:37:16,817 --> 00:37:18,945
Love? That's what you taught your Family?

611
00:37:21,113 --> 00:37:22,865
You're a family man, Agent Tench?

612
00:37:24,825 --> 00:37:25,868
- Yeah.
- Yeah?

613
00:37:26,452 --> 00:37:29,413
Yeah, he's a family man, too,
with his keys and his gun.

614
00:37:29,830 --> 00:37:31,874
He's teaching his children right now.

615
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:34,710
They're learning his beliefs,
and they'll be living 'em.

616
00:37:34,794 --> 00:37:37,505
And you, you're teaching your children.

617
00:37:37,964 --> 00:37:41,050
Look at yourself,
judge the lies you live in.

618
00:37:41,467 --> 00:37:43,344
These children
that come at you with knives,

619
00:37:43,427 --> 00:37:44,595
they're your children.

620
00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:47,014
They were your followers, Charlie.
You gave them the knife.

621
00:37:47,098 --> 00:37:49,392
You taught 'em!
I didn't teach 'em.

622
00:37:49,475 --> 00:37:51,185
I just tried to help 'em stand up.

623
00:37:51,269 --> 00:37:54,063
And they stood up, went out,
and killed seven innocent people.

624
00:37:54,146 --> 00:37:55,648
Oh, so now it's my fault?

625
00:37:56,023 --> 00:37:58,567
It's my fault
that your children do what they do?

626
00:37:59,318 --> 00:38:01,612
Your own children who you are neglecting?

627
00:38:01,696 --> 00:38:04,466
We know that no one in the Family acted
without your approval, Charlie.

628
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:07,952
Well, if you know, you know.
You don't need to talk to me.

629
00:38:08,035 --> 00:38:10,204
It's yourself you need to talk to.

630
00:38:16,002 --> 00:38:18,105
Let's talk about August 9th, 1969.

631
00:38:18,129 --> 00:38:19,672
That is gone in the past.

632
00:38:19,755 --> 00:38:22,008
And when it is gone, it is gone, brother.

633
00:38:22,091 --> 00:38:25,553
That summer, you told the Family,
"Now is the time for Helter Skelter."

634
00:38:25,636 --> 00:38:28,448
That they needed to start a race war
by murdering wealthy white people...

635
00:38:28,472 --> 00:38:30,975
That's the district attorney's fantasy.
That's his fears.

636
00:38:31,058 --> 00:38:33,060
That's a reflection of his fears.

637
00:38:33,144 --> 00:38:35,229
So you're saying that this never happened?

638
00:38:35,313 --> 00:38:37,082
Sure,
I'm saying that never happened!

639
00:38:37,106 --> 00:38:39,483
Bugliosi is a genius, man!

640
00:38:39,567 --> 00:38:43,321
He got everything a prosecutor
would want, except one thing: a case.

641
00:38:43,946 --> 00:38:44,947
He doesn't have a case!

642
00:38:45,448 --> 00:38:47,867
So he puts Linda Kasabian on the stand,

643
00:38:47,950 --> 00:38:50,828
and she tells a sad story
about how she has lied,

644
00:38:50,911 --> 00:38:52,288
and cheated, and...

645
00:38:52,371 --> 00:38:55,249
and done every dishonest thing
that she can think of.

646
00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:58,294
Oh, but it's okay,
she's telling the truth now.

647
00:38:58,919 --> 00:39:03,382
She wouldn't have any ulterior motive,
like immunity for seven counts of murder.

648
00:39:03,466 --> 00:39:05,843
You're saying she lied?
All the witnesses lied?

649
00:39:05,926 --> 00:39:09,472
Each witness got up and testified
only what was best for them.

650
00:39:09,555 --> 00:39:11,640
They didn't testify what was best for me.

651
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,561
Do you believe
this Helter Skelter bullshit?

652
00:39:15,644 --> 00:39:17,688
"Death to Pigs."
"Political Piggy."

653
00:39:18,147 --> 00:39:21,150
- Got to admit, it sounds like a vision.
- There's no vision.

654
00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:24,028
I might have had an opinion
about blacks and whites

655
00:39:24,111 --> 00:39:25,780
and the hassles they were havin'.

656
00:39:25,863 --> 00:39:28,263
But I don't recall saying anything
about starting a race war.

657
00:39:28,699 --> 00:39:30,019
So how did that become the story?

658
00:39:30,076 --> 00:39:33,579
It was Sadie who started hearing messages
in the<i> White Album.</i>

659
00:39:33,871 --> 00:39:38,042
She gave the media the material
for any perversion they cared print.

660
00:39:38,125 --> 00:39:39,418
The DA grabbed Sadie's version,

661
00:39:39,502 --> 00:39:41,587
ran all the way
through the courtroom with it:

662
00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:44,632
"Charles Manson:
the most dangerous man alive."

663
00:39:45,174 --> 00:39:48,511
"Hippie cult leader
who programmed people to kill."

664
00:39:48,594 --> 00:39:52,431
In that book, he's got me so powerful,
a look from me stopped his watch!

665
00:39:53,182 --> 00:39:54,725
I'd lay there in my cell wondering,

666
00:39:54,809 --> 00:39:56,811
"Wow, am I really all they say?"

667
00:39:57,186 --> 00:39:59,271
I was halfway believing that shit myself.

668
00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:02,233
But I've been staring
at every clock I see.

669
00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:03,567
And you know what?

670
00:40:03,651 --> 00:40:05,820
As hard as I stare, the clock never stops.

671
00:40:05,903 --> 00:40:08,697
You had a group of teenagers isolated
in the desert.

672
00:40:08,781 --> 00:40:10,908
You gave 'em drugs,
you convinced 'em you were God,

673
00:40:10,991 --> 00:40:12,159
and you sent 'em out to kill.

674
00:40:12,243 --> 00:40:16,288
Listen man, Bobby Beausoleil was sitting
in jail for murder, you dig?

675
00:40:16,664 --> 00:40:18,249
Tex and Sadie came to me

676
00:40:18,332 --> 00:40:21,377
and said, "Let's do some copycat killings
to get him off."

677
00:40:21,669 --> 00:40:24,171
You're saying the murders, everything,

678
00:40:24,797 --> 00:40:26,637
was just to get Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison?

679
00:40:26,674 --> 00:40:30,511
Those kids were looking at me
with hard eyes.

680
00:40:31,178 --> 00:40:32,430
Yeah, your kids.

681
00:40:33,097 --> 00:40:35,516
Tex Watson, the all-American boy?

682
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:37,101
The pride of Copeville, Texas?

683
00:40:37,184 --> 00:40:39,478
I have better sense
than to disagree with him.

684
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:41,564
So I said this:

685
00:40:41,647 --> 00:40:43,607
"You do what your love tells you to do.

686
00:40:43,691 --> 00:40:45,484
I'll do what my love tells me."

687
00:40:45,568 --> 00:40:48,654
Now whatever he did, that's up to him.
He'll have to explain it to you.

688
00:40:48,737 --> 00:40:49,947
Just to be clear,

689
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,534
this was <i>their </i>plan?
You weren't responsible...

690
00:40:53,617 --> 00:40:56,454
You got a circle
that a man lives inside of.

691
00:40:56,537 --> 00:41:00,249
He's responsible for his circle
and his circle only.

692
00:41:00,332 --> 00:41:02,501
Now, I don't recall saying anything about,

693
00:41:02,585 --> 00:41:05,337
"Go get a knife and kill anyone"
or anything.

694
00:41:05,421 --> 00:41:06,421
Bullshit.

695
00:41:07,631 --> 00:41:10,551
If I wanted,
I could kill you with your mic cord.

696
00:41:10,926 --> 00:41:12,094
With your pencil.

697
00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:15,222
But I wanna love myself,
so I'm not going to do that.

698
00:41:15,306 --> 00:41:17,349
No, you're gonna put it
in someone else's circle.

699
00:41:18,934 --> 00:41:20,394
Listen, man. Tex?

700
00:41:20,478 --> 00:41:23,981
It was hard to tell if he was at the end
of an old high or startin' a new one.

701
00:41:24,064 --> 00:41:26,126
Now, I went back
to the Cielo Drive house that night,

702
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:28,694
and sent one of the kids inside
to see if he'd really done it.

703
00:41:28,777 --> 00:41:29,778
Why didn't you go inside?

704
00:41:30,738 --> 00:41:33,282
It was a crime scene.
I'd have been in violation of my parole.

705
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:37,912
But you were at the LaBianca murders,
weren't you, Charlie?

706
00:41:37,995 --> 00:41:39,705
I had to go. I had to go.

707
00:41:40,664 --> 00:41:42,833
- You had to?
- Yeah. Listen, Tex,

708
00:41:42,917 --> 00:41:44,627
he put himself on me, man.

709
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:46,212
He tried to make me look weak.

710
00:41:46,712 --> 00:41:49,048
We were moving forward inside ourselves.

711
00:41:49,131 --> 00:41:51,759
We were learnin' new things.
And he changed it.

712
00:41:51,842 --> 00:41:54,094
See, he went outside.
He made his own circle.

713
00:41:54,678 --> 00:41:57,848
And, what, now he wants to go back
to "Jesus loves me"?

714
00:41:58,265 --> 00:41:59,350
Blood of the lamb,

715
00:41:59,433 --> 00:42:02,478
the right/wrong games we played
for 2,000 years?

716
00:42:02,561 --> 00:42:03,979
Right and wrong is a game?

717
00:42:04,063 --> 00:42:07,107
There are no rights and wrongs, only ises.

718
00:42:07,608 --> 00:42:09,109
Whatever life is, it is.

719
00:42:09,193 --> 00:42:11,153
Right and wrong got nothing to do with it.

720
00:42:11,237 --> 00:42:13,447
So the murder of seven people just "is"?

721
00:42:15,074 --> 00:42:18,410
Well, it is, isn't it?

722
00:42:19,286 --> 00:42:21,539
No one ever dies, no one ever lives.

723
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:23,707
Those are two words in a leftover game.

724
00:42:23,791 --> 00:42:25,551
People did die, Charlie.
You made sure of it.

725
00:42:25,584 --> 00:42:27,002
Everything is love, man.

726
00:42:27,086 --> 00:42:28,587
There's nothing that isn't love.

727
00:42:28,671 --> 00:42:29,505
Really?

728
00:42:29,588 --> 00:42:30,588
Nothin'?

729
00:42:31,257 --> 00:42:32,901
How much more of this shit
do you wanna listen to?

730
00:42:32,925 --> 00:42:35,803
You need to walk
on a different street, guy.

731
00:42:35,886 --> 00:42:38,347
Put your clothes on backwards,
and let everyone laugh at you.

732
00:42:38,430 --> 00:42:39,557
You're a coward, Charlie.

733
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,850
A coward who takes no responsibility
for his actions.

734
00:42:41,934 --> 00:42:44,353
Yeah, you eat meat with your teeth,

735
00:42:44,436 --> 00:42:46,438
you kill things that are better than you,

736
00:42:46,522 --> 00:42:48,274
and then you say
your children are killers.

737
00:42:48,357 --> 00:42:49,584
No, I'm saying <i>you're </i>a killer.

738
00:42:49,608 --> 00:42:52,254
- I have killed no one...
- You ordered them to go to that house

739
00:42:52,278 --> 00:42:55,039
- and slaughter everyone there.
- ...and I wanted no one to be killed.

740
00:42:56,198 --> 00:42:59,910
I did not direct anyone to do anything
other than what they wanted to do.

741
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:01,161
You didn't stop them either.

742
00:43:01,245 --> 00:43:04,582
I always let children go.
If he falls, that is how he learns.

743
00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,125
You become strong by fallin'.

744
00:43:06,208 --> 00:43:09,020
You're not supposed to let children fall.
You're supposed to guide them.

745
00:43:09,044 --> 00:43:10,796
Guide them into what?

746
00:43:10,879 --> 00:43:12,798
Guide them
into what you've guided them into?

747
00:43:12,881 --> 00:43:14,842
- You fucking midget!
- Bill!

748
00:43:20,055 --> 00:43:21,775
This anger that you're feeling,
Agent Tench,

749
00:43:21,807 --> 00:43:23,892
this is just the anger
that you have got for you.

750
00:43:24,476 --> 00:43:26,145
Find someone else to put yourself on.

751
00:43:26,228 --> 00:43:30,149
I'm tired of being your goat.
I'm tired of being your reflection.

752
00:43:30,232 --> 00:43:32,860
- You're not <i>my </i>reflection.
- I've always been yours.

753
00:43:32,943 --> 00:43:35,195
I've been in your cell
since I was eight years old.

754
00:43:35,279 --> 00:43:36,488
I don't even have a name.

755
00:43:36,572 --> 00:43:38,782
I'm B-33920.

756
00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:40,326
A bell rings, I get up!

757
00:43:40,993 --> 00:43:42,995
A bell rings, I go out!

758
00:43:43,078 --> 00:43:45,998
A bell rings, I do what that bell says.

759
00:43:46,081 --> 00:43:47,708
I'm Pavlov's dog, man.

760
00:43:47,791 --> 00:43:49,543
I'm anything you want me to be.

761
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,006
But what you want is a fiend...

762
00:43:54,715 --> 00:43:56,300
because that's what you are.

763
00:43:56,884 --> 00:43:59,261
See, I never had any say in your world,

764
00:43:59,345 --> 00:44:00,721
you created it.

765
00:44:02,222 --> 00:44:04,600
How do you feel about those murders?

766
00:44:04,683 --> 00:44:05,851
That's what counts.

767
00:44:06,352 --> 00:44:09,104
Happened in your world, not in mine.

768
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,900
What "counts" is that you ordered
the deaths of seven people.

769
00:44:12,983 --> 00:44:15,235
Eight if you "count" an unborn baby.

770
00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:17,613
And now you can reflect it back on me,

771
00:44:17,696 --> 00:44:20,032
and you can lock me up
in your penitentiary,

772
00:44:20,115 --> 00:44:22,326
and you can say that your world's better.

773
00:44:23,118 --> 00:44:24,953
But prison's a frame of thought.

774
00:44:25,663 --> 00:44:28,207
We're all our own prisons,
we are each our own wardens,

775
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:29,792
we do our own time.

776
00:44:30,334 --> 00:44:32,086
Prison is in your mind.

777
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:34,380
Can't you see I'm free?

778
00:44:34,463 --> 00:44:37,758
- You don't look so free to me, Charlie.
- You don't look free to me!

779
00:44:38,175 --> 00:44:41,428
You look like a composite
of what someone told you you are.

780
00:44:41,970 --> 00:44:45,391
You live for other peoples' opinion,
you got pain on your face,

781
00:44:45,474 --> 00:44:46,934
and you wonder if you look okay.

782
00:44:47,017 --> 00:44:48,477
- That's it.
- Bill.

783
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:52,481
Hey, man.

784
00:44:52,564 --> 00:44:54,316
I like your sunglasses.

785
00:44:55,025 --> 00:44:56,068
Can I have 'em?

786
00:45:06,286 --> 00:45:07,955
Thank you kindly.

787
00:45:08,038 --> 00:45:12,668
The guru of Munchkinland can fuck off
straight to hell as far as I'm concerned.

788
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,002
Agent Ford!

789
00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:24,179
Manson said he lifted these from you.

790
00:45:24,763 --> 00:45:27,307
- He said he stole them?
- He was braggin' about it.

791
00:45:27,391 --> 00:45:28,559
He's on his way to the hole.

792
00:45:33,313 --> 00:45:34,606
<i>It's such bullshit.</i>

793
00:45:35,607 --> 00:45:36,900
What makes more sense?

794
00:45:37,651 --> 00:45:40,946
Manson being forced to go along
with Tex and Sadie's copycat crime,

795
00:45:41,029 --> 00:45:43,198
or a race war predicted by the Beatles?

796
00:45:43,282 --> 00:45:44,575
You're saying the DA lied?

797
00:45:47,369 --> 00:45:48,729
I'm saying he gave it a narrative.

798
00:45:49,872 --> 00:45:52,875
He had to explain
to a normal, middle-class jury

799
00:45:52,958 --> 00:45:56,462
how some normal, middle-class kids
brutally murdered seven people.

800
00:45:56,795 --> 00:45:57,795
Jesus, Holden.

801
00:46:00,257 --> 00:46:01,425
Watson's an hour away.

802
00:46:01,633 --> 00:46:03,313
Let's just spend the night
and talk to him.

803
00:46:03,343 --> 00:46:04,344
I have to get home.

804
00:46:06,221 --> 00:46:08,974
- You can't spend one more day?
- No, I can't.

805
00:46:09,391 --> 00:46:11,518
And after Atlanta, we can't fuck up again.

806
00:46:16,648 --> 00:46:19,985
If you stay and do this interview,
I need to know,

807
00:46:20,527 --> 00:46:21,527
can I trust you?

808
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:24,280
Absolutely.

809
00:46:25,532 --> 00:46:28,619
Just go in, do the interview,
come home. Got it?

810
00:46:28,952 --> 00:46:29,952
I promise.

811
00:46:31,705 --> 00:46:32,705
Thanks, Bill.

812
00:46:33,165 --> 00:46:36,835
Fuck. What time have you got?

813
00:46:38,295 --> 00:46:39,505
5:16.

814
00:46:39,588 --> 00:46:41,924
Something wrong with your watch?

815
00:46:57,648 --> 00:46:58,648
Excuse me!

816
00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:01,401
FBI.
Is there any way you could hold the plane?

817
00:47:01,485 --> 00:47:02,820
I'm sorry, sir. It's gone.

818
00:47:02,986 --> 00:47:05,155
Is there a red-eye?

819
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,449
10:00 pm. Arrives in Washington at 6:30.

820
00:47:09,409 --> 00:47:10,409
Thanks.

821
00:47:32,015 --> 00:47:33,934
I apologize.

822
00:47:34,017 --> 00:47:37,479
I can catch him up on things
if you... wanna start.

823
00:47:37,563 --> 00:47:40,107
The appointment is
for the benefit of both parents.

824
00:47:43,777 --> 00:47:44,777
I'm sorry.

825
00:47:47,614 --> 00:47:48,866
So sorry I'm late.

826
00:47:49,783 --> 00:47:50,993
Of course. It happens.

827
00:47:51,702 --> 00:47:55,455
I just, uh, would be careful being late
to appointments with Ms. Leland

828
00:47:55,539 --> 00:47:56,539
or the CA's office.

829
00:47:56,915 --> 00:47:59,543
What we're trying to do here is avoid
as many red flags as we can.

830
00:47:59,626 --> 00:48:00,626
Absolutely.

831
00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:02,335
I'm here to help you both,

832
00:48:02,921 --> 00:48:06,633
and Brian, of course,
get through this as easily as possible.

833
00:48:07,384 --> 00:48:08,218
Thank you.

834
00:48:08,302 --> 00:48:11,179
Now, the goal of our sessions
will be to glean Brian's understanding

835
00:48:11,263 --> 00:48:13,223
of the event, his intentions...

836
00:48:13,307 --> 00:48:15,809
He didn't mean
to do anything to that little boy.

837
00:48:16,685 --> 00:48:17,912
He thought by making a cross...

838
00:48:17,936 --> 00:48:20,814
Mrs. Tench, I...
I'm going to need to hear that from Brian.

839
00:48:20,898 --> 00:48:22,618
Well,
I think I understand my child.

840
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:24,818
Your knowledge
of Brian's behaviors

841
00:48:24,902 --> 00:48:26,028
is going to be essential.

842
00:48:26,111 --> 00:48:28,280
But we have to complete
the process methodically.

843
00:48:29,156 --> 00:48:30,157
We understand.

844
00:48:32,492 --> 00:48:34,494
Uh, let's start with homelife.

845
00:48:34,578 --> 00:48:37,998
I see, from Ms. Leland, that your work
with the bureau involves some travel.

846
00:48:38,081 --> 00:48:39,958
Your wife tells me
you teach "road school"?

847
00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:41,877
He's home most of the time now.

848
00:48:44,338 --> 00:48:46,214
Why exactly were you late, Mr. Tench?

849
00:48:46,632 --> 00:48:49,051
I work in Behavioral Sciences for the FBI.

850
00:48:50,427 --> 00:48:53,722
- I don't know what that means.
- My unit develops procedures

851
00:48:53,805 --> 00:48:55,015
for identifying criminals

852
00:48:55,098 --> 00:48:57,100
by their psychological fingerprint.

853
00:48:57,184 --> 00:48:58,477
And how do you do that?

854
00:48:59,645 --> 00:49:02,147
We conduct interviews
with convicted felons,

855
00:49:02,230 --> 00:49:03,982
try to codify their behavior,

856
00:49:04,274 --> 00:49:06,443
gain insight into their mental states.

857
00:49:06,526 --> 00:49:08,236
What types of criminals do you deal with?

858
00:49:08,695 --> 00:49:10,989
I study multiple murderers.

859
00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:22,042
And were you interviewing
an actual murderer this morning?

860
00:49:23,043 --> 00:49:25,128
I was late because I was in California

861
00:49:25,420 --> 00:49:27,047
interviewing Charles Manson.

862
00:49:27,839 --> 00:49:29,675
Manson?

863
00:49:30,717 --> 00:49:31,717
Yes, sir.

864
00:49:33,512 --> 00:49:35,973
Wait. You spoke directly
with Charles Manson?

865
00:49:37,182 --> 00:49:39,768
Wow. He is quite the character, isn't he?

866
00:49:40,185 --> 00:49:41,311
You ain't kiddin'.

867
00:49:41,395 --> 00:49:45,399
Yeah, I... I must admit, I'm very intrigued
by what that conversation was like.

868
00:49:46,149 --> 00:49:47,442
Could you share any tidbits?

869
00:49:49,111 --> 00:49:50,111
Sure.

870
00:49:52,781 --> 00:49:54,133
Now that I've been
in here a while,

871
00:49:54,157 --> 00:49:56,159
I understand Charlie a whole lot better.

872
00:49:56,535 --> 00:49:57,535
How so?

873
00:49:58,161 --> 00:49:59,329
It's survival.

874
00:49:59,913 --> 00:50:04,042
Charlie's not a tough guy,
so he created a prophet persona.

875
00:50:04,126 --> 00:50:05,752
A false prophet, for sure.

876
00:50:06,378 --> 00:50:09,673
Nothing he ever said came true
except for the things we did.

877
00:50:11,299 --> 00:50:14,386
But he could convince you of things
you never thought possible.

878
00:50:14,970 --> 00:50:18,682
We didn't know if he was Jesus
or the Devil, but...

879
00:50:19,433 --> 00:50:21,518
either was better
than facing the world alone.

880
00:50:21,601 --> 00:50:24,813
But you didn't grow up alone.
You said you had a loving family.

881
00:50:24,896 --> 00:50:28,316
You must have developed a moral compass
before you ever met Charlie.

882
00:50:29,317 --> 00:50:33,113
Let's just say Charlie had a way
of making you think things were your idea.

883
00:50:34,197 --> 00:50:37,909
He'd start small,
like, he'd gather us in a circle,

884
00:50:37,993 --> 00:50:40,203
and he'd put a chair in the middle,

885
00:50:40,287 --> 00:50:44,291
and he would tell us to imagine
there was a person in that chair

886
00:50:44,374 --> 00:50:46,168
and that we had to scare them to death.

887
00:50:47,085 --> 00:50:48,920
Staring at 'em. Screaming at 'em.

888
00:50:49,004 --> 00:50:50,130
An empty chair?

889
00:50:50,505 --> 00:50:53,341
But in our minds, they were sirens
of the apocalypse sittin' there.

890
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,386
Charlie would talk about things
we might do to them.

891
00:50:57,304 --> 00:50:59,848
Like, break into their houses,

892
00:50:59,931 --> 00:51:02,851
tie them up, kill their families.

893
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,938
Those ideas, they were only ours
because they were his first.

894
00:51:07,314 --> 00:51:10,567
Once we incorporated them,
he'd send us out creepy-crawling.

895
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:13,695
- Sorry. What is creepy-crawling?
- It's what Charlie called it,

896
00:51:13,779 --> 00:51:15,822
sneakin' into people's houses,

897
00:51:15,906 --> 00:51:17,657
movin' furniture around.

898
00:51:18,075 --> 00:51:21,787
He said it would help us face our fears,
go beyond them.

899
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:25,082
But Charlie was giving us so many drugs,
we didn't know what fear was.

900
00:51:25,165 --> 00:51:26,165
He gave them to you?

901
00:51:26,416 --> 00:51:30,003
Belladonna, Orange Sunshine, STP.

902
00:51:30,337 --> 00:51:32,589
By the time
Charlie said Helter Skelter was coming,

903
00:51:32,672 --> 00:51:36,051
- we were doin' really heavy stuff.
- Charlie talked about Helter Skelter?

904
00:51:36,134 --> 00:51:37,135
All the time.

905
00:51:37,219 --> 00:51:40,388
He told us Helter Skelter was concocted
by the district attorney.

906
00:51:40,931 --> 00:51:44,226
From the moment I met him,
Charlie was talkin' about a race war.

907
00:51:44,810 --> 00:51:47,604
We lived every day
thinking the world was about to end.

908
00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:49,523
There is freedom in that.

909
00:51:50,023 --> 00:51:52,567
If there's no tomorrow,
there's no consequences.

910
00:51:53,777 --> 00:51:56,446
Does it matter what you do
on your last day on earth?

911
00:51:57,072 --> 00:51:59,241
What crimes might you commit, Agent Ford?

912
00:51:59,324 --> 00:52:01,952
I'd like to think
I'd still know right from wrong.

913
00:52:02,035 --> 00:52:03,578
By then, there was no wrong.

914
00:52:03,662 --> 00:52:05,747
I had no conscience.
That had been taken from me.

915
00:52:05,831 --> 00:52:06,831
By Charlie?

916
00:52:08,667 --> 00:52:10,710
Charlie said you
and Sadie came up with the murders

917
00:52:10,794 --> 00:52:13,338
as a way of getting Bobby Beausoleil
out of prison.

918
00:52:14,131 --> 00:52:16,842
You have to understand, we were all one.

919
00:52:16,925 --> 00:52:18,176
We were part of the all.

920
00:52:18,260 --> 00:52:20,095
We thought the same thoughts.

921
00:52:20,637 --> 00:52:21,471
Charlie kept saying

922
00:52:21,555 --> 00:52:23,849
that if blackie didn't start
Helter Skelter soon,

923
00:52:23,932 --> 00:52:25,475
then we'd have to show 'em how.

924
00:52:26,434 --> 00:52:28,728
He chose Cielo Drive
because he'd been there before.

925
00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:31,857
- So that was his idea.
- They were all his ideas.

926
00:52:31,940 --> 00:52:33,316
But he didn't go with you.

927
00:52:33,900 --> 00:52:36,153
Charlie wasn't about
getting his hands dirty.

928
00:52:36,236 --> 00:52:37,445
He did go to the house.

929
00:52:37,529 --> 00:52:39,531
Only after it was all over.

930
00:52:42,325 --> 00:52:45,620
Did Charlie give you or the girls
any specific orders?

931
00:52:46,705 --> 00:52:47,956
He told me to kill everyone.

932
00:52:48,456 --> 00:52:51,209
He said, "Make it as gruesome as you can."

933
00:52:51,293 --> 00:52:52,752
Told me, "Kill 'em all."

934
00:52:53,545 --> 00:52:55,338
And you did.

935
00:52:55,797 --> 00:52:57,674
Yes, sir.

936
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:06,266
I remember...being in the car.

937
00:53:07,767 --> 00:53:11,438
I had so many drugs in my system,
my mind kept phasing in and out.

938
00:53:12,189 --> 00:53:14,733
I was lyin' with my head in Sadie's lap.

939
00:53:17,110 --> 00:53:20,572
She shook me
and told me to cut the phone lines.

940
00:53:21,448 --> 00:53:24,784
Next thing I remember,
we were walkin' up the drive.

941
00:53:25,368 --> 00:53:29,080
There were headlights,
and Sadie hollered, "Get him."

942
00:53:30,081 --> 00:53:31,081
I looked down,

943
00:53:31,416 --> 00:53:32,667
I had a gun in my hand,

944
00:53:32,751 --> 00:53:34,002
so I stuck it in the window

945
00:53:34,085 --> 00:53:35,354
and I pulled the trigger.

946
00:53:35,378 --> 00:53:37,672
There was no thought. No feeling at all.

947
00:53:37,756 --> 00:53:39,633
Eighteen-year-old Steven Parent.

948
00:53:40,425 --> 00:53:42,761
That was the first true sin of my life.

949
00:53:44,012 --> 00:53:45,222
But I've repented of it.

950
00:53:45,305 --> 00:53:48,350
God's grace has blessed my soul
with the peace of his forgiveness.

951
00:53:48,433 --> 00:53:50,143
You said you felt nothing?

952
00:53:50,810 --> 00:53:52,562
Because death didn't matter to us.

953
00:53:54,564 --> 00:53:55,565
Okay.

954
00:53:59,527 --> 00:54:00,946
What happened in the house?

955
00:54:03,281 --> 00:54:05,659
I remember following Sadie inside.

956
00:54:07,661 --> 00:54:10,288
There was a man asleep on the couch,

957
00:54:11,206 --> 00:54:12,332
it was quiet.

958
00:54:14,417 --> 00:54:16,920
Then people started coming in
from other rooms.

959
00:54:17,003 --> 00:54:19,232
A man was comin' at me, yellin'.

960
00:54:19,256 --> 00:54:21,883
I... I had the gun, so I shot him.

961
00:54:23,385 --> 00:54:25,387
Everything just busted open.

962
00:54:25,470 --> 00:54:26,721
Women were screamin'.

963
00:54:26,805 --> 00:54:29,516
We were stabbin' people, runnin' around.

964
00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:31,643
There was blood everywhere.

965
00:54:31,726 --> 00:54:33,228
Did you feel anything then?

966
00:54:33,311 --> 00:54:35,230
Sadie had to kick me to get me going.

967
00:54:35,313 --> 00:54:37,899
But you... got going.

968
00:54:38,775 --> 00:54:41,736
You have to remember,
those people, they were just shapes.

969
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:43,238
They had no faces.

970
00:54:44,489 --> 00:54:46,366
Sadie was outside hollerin' for me.

971
00:54:46,449 --> 00:54:48,743
She had this woman pinned on the lawn...

972
00:54:48,827 --> 00:54:50,627
...so I stabbed her.

973
00:54:50,662 --> 00:54:55,083
You stabbed Abigail Folger...
28 times.

974
00:54:55,166 --> 00:54:56,876
Yeah.

975
00:54:57,752 --> 00:55:00,130
She was... practically dead
when I got there.

976
00:55:01,923 --> 00:55:04,718
Frykowski had 51 stab wounds.

977
00:55:05,176 --> 00:55:08,513
I remember the knife
going up and down, like, um...

978
00:55:08,596 --> 00:55:11,391
...a hammer in an engine block

979
00:55:11,474 --> 00:55:13,852
until my fist disappeared in the mess.

980
00:55:16,604 --> 00:55:17,604
And then?

981
00:55:18,106 --> 00:55:20,746
And then we went into the living room.

982
00:55:23,194 --> 00:55:24,487
Where Sharon Tate was.

983
00:55:28,033 --> 00:55:29,273
Could you see she was pregnant?

984
00:55:29,326 --> 00:55:30,845
Oh, yeah.

985
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:32,513
If there are any problems,
I'm gonna talk to him about it.

986
00:55:32,537 --> 00:55:35,832
They're gonna try.

987
00:55:40,837 --> 00:55:43,006
She begged us to take her with us,

988
00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:45,884
let her have her baby and kill her after.

989
00:55:53,641 --> 00:55:55,518
Tex?

990
00:55:57,312 --> 00:55:59,981
It didn't seem crazy at the time,
the idea of takin' her.

991
00:56:00,774 --> 00:56:02,525
But I kept hearing Charlie's voice,

992
00:56:02,609 --> 00:56:03,693
"Kill 'em all."

993
00:56:04,027 --> 00:56:06,821
He told me over and over again,
"Make sure everyone's dead."

994
00:56:08,448 --> 00:56:09,366
So you made sure.

995
00:56:09,449 --> 00:56:11,618
I did what Charlie told me.

996
00:56:12,994 --> 00:56:14,329
Except go to the other houses.

997
00:56:15,205 --> 00:56:16,289
What other houses?

998
00:56:16,664 --> 00:56:19,793
Charlie had given us a list,
but...I was tired.

999
00:56:20,377 --> 00:56:22,504
It's hard stabbin' people, Agent Ford.

1000
00:56:22,587 --> 00:56:25,799
Sometimes you hit bone.
My hands were aching.

1001
00:56:27,467 --> 00:56:29,302
So we went back to the ranch, and...

1002
00:56:30,095 --> 00:56:31,471
and I slept like a baby.

1003
00:56:33,473 --> 00:56:36,643
Tex, do you think
you would have ever killed anyone

1004
00:56:36,726 --> 00:56:38,144
if you hadn't met Charlie?

1005
00:56:38,478 --> 00:56:39,479
I hope not.

1006
00:56:40,188 --> 00:56:42,148
I pray to God I wouldn't have, but...

1007
00:56:44,109 --> 00:56:46,111
I know, in my heart, I harbored anger.

1008
00:56:46,194 --> 00:56:48,571
I shot and I stabbed them.

1009
00:56:49,114 --> 00:56:52,492
I beat Frykowski's head with a pistol
until it broke in my hand.

1010
00:56:52,575 --> 00:56:54,202
But Charlie told you to do it.

1011
00:56:54,828 --> 00:56:56,579
Charlie never killed anyone.

1012
00:56:57,414 --> 00:56:59,499
He just removed our fear of doin' it.

1013
00:57:00,792 --> 00:57:02,919
So you're taking responsibility.

1014
00:57:03,837 --> 00:57:05,338
I killed those people.

1015
00:57:06,131 --> 00:57:07,132
All of them.

1016
00:57:07,715 --> 00:57:10,176
Those people are victims
of the Watson murders.

1017
00:57:10,844 --> 00:57:15,807
But the Bible tells us, all have sinned,
and all fall short of the glory of God.

1018
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:18,226
He who confesses obtains mercy.

1019
00:57:18,726 --> 00:57:19,644
I was lost...

1020
00:57:19,727 --> 00:57:21,205
<i>...until I gave myself
to the Lord.</i>

1021
00:57:21,229 --> 00:57:24,941
<i>But now, I've been redeemed
by the perfect blood of Christ.</i>

1022
00:57:25,984 --> 00:57:28,319
First Manson and then Jesus.

1023
00:57:28,736 --> 00:57:31,197
He's just exchanged one belief system
for another.

1024
00:57:32,365 --> 00:57:34,325
See, the contradicting stories
don't concern me.

1025
00:57:34,409 --> 00:57:36,494
Neither is a completely reliable source.

1026
00:57:37,328 --> 00:57:39,497
And I'm not so sure
that Manson was a total loss.

1027
00:57:39,581 --> 00:57:42,459
He had influence over his young followers

1028
00:57:42,542 --> 00:57:44,422
much in the same way
that Corll had over Henley.

1029
00:57:44,794 --> 00:57:46,754
He used sex and drugs.

1030
00:57:46,838 --> 00:57:49,132
But he also had an overt philosophy.

1031
00:57:49,215 --> 00:57:50,341
If you can call it that.

1032
00:57:50,425 --> 00:57:52,552
What is Helter Skelter, really?

1033
00:57:53,386 --> 00:57:54,387
It's borrowed.

1034
00:57:54,471 --> 00:57:55,972
But how is it useful to him?

1035
00:57:56,681 --> 00:57:59,350
What if the point of Helter Skelter
wasn't a race war?

1036
00:57:59,434 --> 00:58:01,394
What if it was about control?

1037
00:58:01,811 --> 00:58:04,397
- Over the Family?
- A cause to forge solidarity.

1038
00:58:04,481 --> 00:58:07,817
What if Tex and Sadie did come up
with the idea of a copycat crime?

1039
00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,528
It's proactive, risky, revolutionary.

1040
00:58:11,112 --> 00:58:13,990
It may not have been what Manson intended,
but they called his bluff.

1041
00:58:14,073 --> 00:58:16,159
They were doing what he only talks about.

1042
00:58:16,576 --> 00:58:20,914
From Manson's perspective,
his authority would have been threatened.

1043
00:58:20,997 --> 00:58:22,391
He'd have no choice
but to go along with it.

1044
00:58:22,415 --> 00:58:23,476
At the LaBianca house,

1045
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,294
Manson went in and tied up the victims
before sending the killers in.

1046
00:58:26,377 --> 00:58:28,880
He wanted to remind them
that this was his plan.

1047
00:58:28,963 --> 00:58:29,797
Not anyone else's.

1048
00:58:29,881 --> 00:58:33,218
He was doing whatever he could
to keep authority over his Family.

1049
00:58:33,635 --> 00:58:37,096
Control, or at least the appearance of it,
was worth any cost.

1050
00:58:37,597 --> 00:58:38,765
Even seven murders.

1051
00:58:39,057 --> 00:58:40,975
When we were leaving,
he did a weird thing.

1052
00:58:42,018 --> 00:58:44,437
He asked for my sunglasses,
so I gave them to him.

1053
00:58:44,521 --> 00:58:46,439
A guard chased me down
and said Manson bragged

1054
00:58:46,523 --> 00:58:48,399
to everyone he stole them from the FBI.

1055
00:58:48,733 --> 00:58:51,110
He was willing to go to the hole
just to look powerful.

1056
00:58:51,194 --> 00:58:53,821
On the one hand,
you have a bunch of drugged-out kids.

1057
00:58:53,905 --> 00:58:58,201
On the other,
a practiced, manipulative ex-con.

1058
00:58:59,327 --> 00:59:01,788
And you're arguing
that Manson was forced into it?

1059
00:59:02,205 --> 00:59:05,166
Tex gave a pretty detailed account
of succumbing to brainwashing.

1060
00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:06,650
He didn't dismiss the idea

1061
00:59:06,709 --> 00:59:08,549
that he would've killed
without meeting Manson.

1062
00:59:08,586 --> 00:59:09,796
Manson found the right people.

1063
00:59:09,879 --> 00:59:11,673
Young, submissive, alone.

1064
00:59:11,756 --> 00:59:13,883
But primarily,
people with untapped potential.

1065
00:59:13,967 --> 00:59:16,302
People who saw themselves as outliers.

1066
00:59:16,386 --> 00:59:19,026
People who only had to have
their fear removed to do what they did.

1067
00:59:19,472 --> 00:59:21,140
He simply helped them be who they were.

1068
00:59:26,646 --> 00:59:27,646
Hi.

1069
00:59:29,732 --> 00:59:32,527
- Escort me in?
- Nancy not coming?

1070
00:59:33,069 --> 00:59:35,488
Didn't want to drag her
to another office thing.

1071
00:59:35,780 --> 00:59:36,990
- You?
- Same.

1072
00:59:38,074 --> 00:59:39,510
So, how painful do you think...

1073
00:59:39,534 --> 00:59:41,411
...this thing is gonna be?

1074
00:59:41,578 --> 00:59:44,330
From the look of the house,
at least the booze will be good.

1075
00:59:47,625 --> 00:59:48,625
Welcome.

1076
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:49,877
Come on in.

1077
00:59:51,504 --> 00:59:52,880
Everyone's in the living room.

1078
00:59:52,964 --> 00:59:54,257
AD Wyman's already here.

1079
00:59:54,674 --> 00:59:58,136
I've been giving him a little warm-up.
Saving the best parts for you, of course.

1080
00:59:58,595 --> 01:00:01,556
Remember,
all they want is a good war story.

1081
01:00:01,639 --> 01:00:03,308
Got a few of those.

1082
01:00:03,975 --> 01:00:06,019
Bill, go ahead in. I'll be right there.

1083
01:00:08,396 --> 01:00:09,230
Thank you.

1084
01:00:09,314 --> 01:00:12,650
Shilling for the FBI probably is not
what you expected to be roped into.

1085
01:00:12,734 --> 01:00:14,402
Oh, it's fine. I did plenty of it at BU.

1086
01:00:14,485 --> 01:00:15,987
Well, I appreciate it.

1087
01:00:16,070 --> 01:00:18,072
And I do want you to have a good time.

1088
01:00:19,032 --> 01:00:21,872
Speaking of which, there's someone
I would love for you to meet. Warren.

1089
01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:25,413
This is Dr. Wendy Carr.

1090
01:00:25,788 --> 01:00:28,916
Oh. Um... It is a pleasure, Dr. Carr.

1091
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,835
Warren is our liaison
with the LEAA,

1092
01:00:30,918 --> 01:00:33,296
so basically,
he manages our purse strings.

1093
01:00:33,379 --> 01:00:36,507
The good news is, I'm already a fan,
so there's no need to sell me.

1094
01:00:36,591 --> 01:00:38,217
Whew. Well, that's a relief.

1095
01:00:38,551 --> 01:00:40,511
Let me have a drink sent over.
What will you have?

1096
01:00:40,553 --> 01:00:42,263
A glass of white wine, thank you.

1097
01:00:44,015 --> 01:00:45,892
So you actually read our reports?

1098
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:49,854
They are so much more interesting
than budget committee minutes.

1099
01:00:50,438 --> 01:00:51,481
That's a low standard.

1100
01:00:51,814 --> 01:00:54,108
Well, I really have read them, Doctor...

1101
01:00:54,901 --> 01:00:56,611
- May I call you Wendy?
- Of course.

1102
01:00:56,944 --> 01:00:57,984
I've read the transcripts.

1103
01:00:58,029 --> 01:01:00,365
I've read the analyses,
and they're fascinating.

1104
01:01:00,448 --> 01:01:01,699
And truly original.

1105
01:01:01,783 --> 01:01:04,786
We were asked to keep our "originality"
in the basement when we started.

1106
01:01:04,869 --> 01:01:06,329
It must have been quite a shock,

1107
01:01:06,412 --> 01:01:09,165
coming from the world of scholarship
and daylight

1108
01:01:09,248 --> 01:01:11,042
into a bunker full of G-men.

1109
01:01:11,125 --> 01:01:12,845
I'm doing work
that I wouldn't be able to do

1110
01:01:12,877 --> 01:01:15,546
- anywhere else.
- You are hardly what I expected

1111
01:01:15,630 --> 01:01:19,258
from the "Dr. Carr Commentary
on Ed Kemper's Mutilation Fantasies."

1112
01:01:19,342 --> 01:01:21,302
Well, I'm afraid to ask what you expected.

1113
01:01:21,844 --> 01:01:24,722
Something not so form-fitted.

1114
01:01:26,057 --> 01:01:28,226
- A lot more tweed.
- Ah.

1115
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:33,564
George, this is Special Agent Bill Tench.

1116
01:01:33,940 --> 01:01:36,234
- Founder of our Behavioral Science Unit.
- Ah.

1117
01:01:36,484 --> 01:01:39,195
I was telling George
I only know the boring admin side.

1118
01:01:39,278 --> 01:01:42,323
You are the guy who sits in the room
with the serial killers.

1119
01:01:42,407 --> 01:01:43,408
That's me, sir.

1120
01:01:43,491 --> 01:01:46,494
Amazing. Ted says no cuffs on these guys.
Is that right?

1121
01:01:46,577 --> 01:01:49,497
Makes 'em feel like we really want to hear
their side of the story.

1122
01:01:49,664 --> 01:01:51,833
Bill has been able
to get things out of Speck,

1123
01:01:51,916 --> 01:01:55,628
Berkowitz, even Manson,
that they have never said to anybody else.

1124
01:01:56,045 --> 01:01:59,507
We went into Berkowitz thinking we were
just going to hear that same old demon,

1125
01:01:59,590 --> 01:02:00,590
barking dog story.

1126
01:02:01,050 --> 01:02:03,720
What could we possibly learn
from a guy that crazy?

1127
01:02:03,803 --> 01:02:06,347
But we got him to admit
that the whole demon thing

1128
01:02:06,431 --> 01:02:07,640
was totally made up.

1129
01:02:08,057 --> 01:02:09,934
- He said that?
- A complete crock.

1130
01:02:10,518 --> 01:02:13,187
And he said the shrinks ate it up faster
than anybody.

1131
01:02:15,273 --> 01:02:18,609
But hiding in a basement
or hiding behind a typewriter,

1132
01:02:18,693 --> 01:02:20,013
you know, what else do you enjoy?

1133
01:02:20,069 --> 01:02:21,989
I don't consider
either of those things "hiding."

1134
01:02:22,155 --> 01:02:23,406
What I mean is,

1135
01:02:24,824 --> 01:02:26,951
you have a very compelling presence.

1136
01:02:27,368 --> 01:02:30,621
Spending all your time
in such solitary pursuits,

1137
01:02:30,705 --> 01:02:32,145
you may not even be aware of your...

1138
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:34,876
your effect on people.

1139
01:02:39,338 --> 01:02:40,338
What are we doing here?

1140
01:02:41,132 --> 01:02:43,885
- Well, every job has its politics.
- What I mean is,

1141
01:02:44,302 --> 01:02:45,887
we could be somewhere else, together.

1142
01:02:46,846 --> 01:02:47,680
Oh.

1143
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:48,824
I'd like to be alone with you.

1144
01:02:48,848 --> 01:02:53,519
Ah, Warren, no, thank you.

1145
01:02:53,603 --> 01:02:55,980
- We could be really enjoying ourselves.
- Holden!

1146
01:02:57,648 --> 01:03:00,193
This is Special Agent Holden Ford

1147
01:03:00,443 --> 01:03:02,069
who's also with Behavioral Science.

1148
01:03:02,153 --> 01:03:03,154
This is Warren...

1149
01:03:03,237 --> 01:03:05,323
Freeman. Justice liaison.

1150
01:03:05,698 --> 01:03:06,616
- Hi.
- Hi.

1151
01:03:06,699 --> 01:03:07,617
Were you looking for the bar?

1152
01:03:07,700 --> 01:03:09,869
'Cause I was thinking
about getting myself a refill,

1153
01:03:09,952 --> 01:03:12,121
but I'm just gonna stop off
at the ladies' room, first.

1154
01:03:12,205 --> 01:03:14,749
I'll get your drink,
and we can finish our conversation.

1155
01:03:17,710 --> 01:03:18,878
Oh.

1156
01:03:21,005 --> 01:03:21,881
It's this way.

1157
01:03:21,964 --> 01:03:23,341
- Thank you.
- Yeah.

1158
01:03:25,551 --> 01:03:29,472
The guard said he bragged
he'd stolen sunglasses from an FBI agent.

1159
01:03:29,555 --> 01:03:32,517
They threw him in solitary.

1160
01:03:33,017 --> 01:03:35,353
Rather than say they were a gift...
There he is!

1161
01:03:35,937 --> 01:03:37,855
...he preferred to do six weeks
in the hole

1162
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,150
just to look like he was a badass.

1163
01:03:41,234 --> 01:03:43,361
Gentlemen, this is Special Agent Ford.

1164
01:03:43,444 --> 01:03:46,489
He's been key in developing many
of the techniques we now use in the field.

1165
01:03:46,572 --> 01:03:49,575
Bill's been regaling us.
You must have some amazing stories too.

1166
01:03:50,409 --> 01:03:52,703
I've had many of the same experiences
Bill's had.

1167
01:03:52,787 --> 01:03:54,956
I'll leave you in Agent Ford's hands.

1168
01:03:55,540 --> 01:03:57,124
Excuse me while I take a leak.

1169
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:07,426
What's important in the Manson story

1170
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:10,847
is that we're learning
what compulsions motivate behavior.

1171
01:04:11,889 --> 01:04:13,641
For him, it was the appearance of control.

1172
01:04:13,724 --> 01:04:16,936
His crimes can be boiled down
to that singular need.

1173
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,439
By correlating psychological fingerprints
to known behaviors,

1174
01:04:20,523 --> 01:04:24,318
we're building a primer
to understanding criminal action.

1175
01:04:45,965 --> 01:04:48,384
How did you escape the dog and pony show?

1176
01:04:50,261 --> 01:04:52,638
You know,
it's cheating to hide with the wives.

1177
01:04:53,472 --> 01:04:55,641
Uh, Warren Freeman.

1178
01:04:55,725 --> 01:04:57,643
You know him?

1179
01:04:57,727 --> 01:04:58,727
Oh, yeah.

1180
01:04:59,437 --> 01:05:01,272
He's popular in the secretary pool

1181
01:05:01,355 --> 01:05:02,982
and the wives' club.

1182
01:05:03,065 --> 01:05:04,150
How'd you get away?

1183
01:05:04,233 --> 01:05:06,402
I... I grabbed on
to the first passing body.

1184
01:05:06,861 --> 01:05:08,195
Happened to be Holden.

1185
01:05:08,279 --> 01:05:10,615
That bad, huh?

1186
01:05:10,698 --> 01:05:11,866
Oh, I should've known.

1187
01:05:13,242 --> 01:05:15,328
How go the war stories?

1188
01:05:16,829 --> 01:05:19,040
I never know
exactly what it is I'm selling.

1189
01:05:20,124 --> 01:05:21,250
It's not the work.

1190
01:05:22,084 --> 01:05:25,004
I'm really just selling
somebody else's ass up the ladder.

1191
01:05:25,922 --> 01:05:27,757
Still, it's a hell of a lot better than...

1192
01:05:30,676 --> 01:05:31,676
Sorry.

1193
01:05:32,887 --> 01:05:34,680
I got some things going on at home.

1194
01:05:36,057 --> 01:05:37,057
You okay?

1195
01:05:41,687 --> 01:05:45,608
Brian was playing with some older boys
and a toddler.

1196
01:05:46,651 --> 01:05:47,944
Things got out of hand...

1197
01:05:49,779 --> 01:05:52,698
and the older boys
ended up suffocating the toddler.

1198
01:05:53,366 --> 01:05:54,450
Oh, my God.

1199
01:05:55,409 --> 01:05:56,661
Brian saw it all.

1200
01:05:59,789 --> 01:06:01,540
He must've remembered the Bible story

1201
01:06:01,624 --> 01:06:06,754
because he convinced the other boys
to take the body and tie it to a cross.

1202
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:10,216
He's exempt from charges, thankfully.

1203
01:06:10,967 --> 01:06:12,426
But he...

1204
01:06:13,386 --> 01:06:16,681
<i>We </i>have to go
through court-mandated protocols.

1205
01:06:16,764 --> 01:06:18,391
Is Brian talking to someone?

1206
01:06:18,474 --> 01:06:21,143
We've got a psychiatrist, a social worker,

1207
01:06:21,686 --> 01:06:23,229
benchmarks we have to meet.

1208
01:06:24,105 --> 01:06:25,105
How is Nancy?

1209
01:06:25,439 --> 01:06:28,818
She's not grasping
that Brian might need some kind of help.

1210
01:06:29,318 --> 01:06:30,194
On the other hand,

1211
01:06:30,277 --> 01:06:32,029
she won't leave him alone
for five minutes.

1212
01:06:32,113 --> 01:06:34,115
That's really why she's not here tonight.

1213
01:06:34,198 --> 01:06:36,283
We haven't left the house
since it happened.

1214
01:06:36,784 --> 01:06:39,537
I mean, just give it time.
I mean, this is huge.

1215
01:06:40,997 --> 01:06:43,416
And really, Bill, anything that I can do.

1216
01:06:44,375 --> 01:06:46,127
I'm gonna ask for your discretion.

1217
01:06:49,130 --> 01:06:50,256
Holden doesn't know.

1218
01:06:53,759 --> 01:06:54,759
I understand.

1219
01:06:59,265 --> 01:07:00,933
They look critically bored.

1220
01:07:01,308 --> 01:07:02,601
We should get back in there.

1221
01:07:03,811 --> 01:07:05,146
Perform life support.

1222
01:07:11,610 --> 01:07:13,672
You know, Bill,
I think that I just might sneak out.

1223
01:07:13,696 --> 01:07:14,739
I don't blame you.

1224
01:07:17,950 --> 01:07:18,950
Wendy.

1225
01:07:19,952 --> 01:07:21,829
I hope I didn't frighten you off.

1226
01:07:21,912 --> 01:07:24,665
I'd love for us to finish our talk,
maybe somewhere quieter.

1227
01:07:24,749 --> 01:07:26,917
Oh, thank you,
but I'm actually not feeling very well.

1228
01:07:27,001 --> 01:07:29,003
Oh, I'd love to drive you home.

1229
01:07:29,628 --> 01:07:31,630
- I insist.
- I'm perfectly fine to drive.

1230
01:07:31,714 --> 01:07:33,841
Well, at least let me see you out.

1231
01:07:33,924 --> 01:07:36,844
No, Warren, I'm going to see myself out.
I insist.

1232
01:07:39,305 --> 01:07:41,932
<i>♪ When we're out together ♪</i>

1233
01:07:42,016 --> 01:07:45,061
<i>♪ Dancin' cheek to cheek ♪</i>

1234
01:07:45,144 --> 01:07:48,064
Wyman's invited you
to speak at the annual directors' retreat.

1235
01:07:48,439 --> 01:07:49,607
I accepted for you.

1236
01:07:51,817 --> 01:07:54,820
A spectacular country club: skeet, golf.

1237
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:55,904
No wives.

1238
01:07:57,073 --> 01:07:58,991
And it's face time with the director.

1239
01:07:59,158 --> 01:08:00,878
That's what we were hoping for tonight,
sir?

1240
01:08:04,330 --> 01:08:06,207
Miss. Let's get this man a drink.

1241
01:08:06,290 --> 01:08:07,291
He's earned it.

1242
01:08:13,172 --> 01:08:15,174
Think you can get Holden
to loosen up a little?

1243
01:08:15,257 --> 01:08:17,718
...events in a suspect's life.

1244
01:08:17,802 --> 01:08:20,530
We've found a high incidence
of broken homes and neglected families...

1245
01:08:20,554 --> 01:08:22,598
Did my partner tell you
about Richard Speck?

1246
01:08:22,681 --> 01:08:23,682
No.

1247
01:08:23,766 --> 01:08:24,975
So Speck comes in,

1248
01:08:25,351 --> 01:08:29,105
and we see
he's got something in his hands.

1249
01:08:52,378 --> 01:08:53,897
- Hello?
<i>- Hey, Holden.</i>

1250
01:08:53,921 --> 01:08:54,964
<i>News from Atlanta.</i>

1251
01:08:55,214 --> 01:08:56,632
Jim. Tell me.

1252
01:08:56,715 --> 01:08:58,634
<i>Another body, another strangulation.</i>

1253
01:08:59,135 --> 01:09:00,136
How old?

1254
01:09:00,219 --> 01:09:01,219
<i>Twelve.</i>

1255
01:09:01,345 --> 01:09:02,471
<i>Clifford Jones.</i>

1256
01:09:02,847 --> 01:09:05,558
<i>He was collecting cans for change
so his aunt could do laundry.</i>

1257
01:09:05,641 --> 01:09:06,641
<i>Broad daylight.</i>

1258
01:09:07,226 --> 01:09:09,019
<i>He's number 13.</i>

1259
01:09:16,861 --> 01:09:18,863
<i>♪ Cease to exist ♪</i>

1260
01:09:20,447 --> 01:09:24,368
<i>♪ Just come and say you love me ♪</i>

1261
01:09:28,956 --> 01:09:30,875
<i>♪ Give up your world ♪</i>

1262
01:09:33,043 --> 01:09:39,091
<i>♪ Come on, you can be ♪</i>

1263
01:09:39,175 --> 01:09:41,010
<i>♪ I'm your kind ♪</i>

1264
01:09:41,468 --> 01:09:46,974
<i>♪ Oh, your kind, and I can see ♪</i>

1265
01:09:47,057 --> 01:09:49,185
<i>♪ You walk on, walk on ♪</i>

1266
01:09:50,102 --> 01:09:52,146
<i>♪ I love you, pretty girl ♪</i>

1267
01:09:55,900 --> 01:09:58,235
<i>♪ My life is yours ♪</i>

1268
01:09:58,777 --> 01:10:01,197
<i>♪ Ah, you can have my world ♪</i>

1269
01:10:04,700 --> 01:10:06,535
<i>♪ Never had a lesson ♪</i>

1270
01:10:06,994 --> 01:10:08,454
<i>♪ I ever learned ♪</i>

1271
01:10:09,330 --> 01:10:11,040
<i>♪ But I know ♪</i>

1272
01:10:11,123 --> 01:10:12,791
<i>♪ We all get our turn ♪</i>

1273
01:10:12,875 --> 01:10:15,461
<i>♪ And I love you ♪</i>

1274
01:10:15,544 --> 01:10:19,632
<i>♪ Never learn not to love you ♪</i>

1275
01:10:19,757 --> 01:10:21,467
<i>♪ Submission is a gift ♪</i>

1276
01:10:21,842 --> 01:10:24,053
<i>♪ Go on, give it to your brother ♪</i>

1277
01:10:27,348 --> 01:10:29,558
<i>♪ Love and understandin' ♪</i>

1278
01:10:30,893 --> 01:10:32,311
<i>♪ Is for one another ♪</i>

1279
01:10:34,772 --> 01:10:36,482
<i>♪ I'm your kind ♪</i>

1280
01:10:36,732 --> 01:10:38,400
<i>♪ I'm your kind ♪</i>

1281
01:10:38,484 --> 01:10:42,112
<i>♪ I'm your brother ♪</i>

1282
01:10:42,196 --> 01:10:43,948
<i>♪ I never had a lesson ♪</i>

1283
01:10:44,031 --> 01:10:45,491
<i>♪ I ever learned ♪</i>

1284
01:10:46,325 --> 01:10:48,994
<i>♪ But I know we all get our turn ♪</i>

1285
01:10:49,078 --> 01:10:51,872
<i>♪ And I love you ♪</i>

1286
01:10:51,956 --> 01:10:55,834
<i>♪ Never learn not to love you ♪</i>

1287
01:10:55,918 --> 01:10:59,546
- <i>♪ Never learn not to love you ♪
- ♪ Never learn not to love you ♪</i>

1288
01:10:59,630 --> 01:11:04,510
<i>♪ Never learn not to love you ♪</i>

9999
00:00:0,500 --> 00:00:2,00
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